Open Access Independent Schools?

[HeadsShouldersKneesandToes]

I've done a search to see if this has been done but couldn't find anything, apologies if this is previously-troden ground.

This is a really interesting report from the Sutton Trust.

Basically they are proposing the idea that Independent Schools should have the option of joining an Open Access system where there is a needs-blind admissions policy for any child who wins a place via competive entrance exam. If your child gets in and you are wealthy, you pay full fees. If you are poor, you get all or almost all fees paid. They have done a seven year trial in Liverpool with very interesting results.

The sutton trust reckon that per-capita on average it would be no more expensive than state schooling because of the proportion who would pay most or all of the fees, and would be less socially divisive than the current system as the cream would be skimmed off from the comp system based soley on academic grounds rather than academic social and wealth grounds as is currently the case. They also say that they would propose it was limited to no more than 1% of each year's intake such that it wouldn't have a significant effect on the ability mix of the non-selective schools.

I thought it was an interesting idea, but it's clearly a huge step from the current system. Could it work? Would people love it or hate it?

Xenia - I think you have a very warped view of the world. Firstly women (why not men?) should try and earn an extra £10k or whatever to get their darlings away from state school. Doesn't it occur to you that many people in the UK are working all hours just to make ends meet. Secondly do you really think there is no difference in outcome between state grammars and state comprehensives? Read the league tables and see for yourself.

Do you really think that private school parents are the only ones that work hard and deserve tax breaks. What about public sector workers, teachers, nurses etc who have been on a pay freeze for the last couple of years?

I would be quite pleased if private schools lost charitable status, if they come within the charge to VAT all the better, I don't give a flying fuck if they "help the poor" (how patronising). I pay a proportion of my tax at the higher rate and I am very happy for my kids to go to excellent state schools AND fund those less well off than myself.

I don't want the state to give me a tax break/ or a voucher or any other financial contribution to my DS education. I send my DS to independent school and Im unbelievably lucky in that he receives a generous bursary and that we earn enough money to make up the difference and still have a reasonable quality of life. We are surrounded by excellent state schools but I choose to spend it on school fees knowing believing that it gives something to my DS that state ed. can never provide in a million years. But I have never felt that the state should subsidise my choice I too am happy to fund others who aren't as fortunate as I am because that it what you do in a civilised society.

BF, there are a few other threads today about grammars and comps. The Sutton Trust's report has found that the bright children in the comps get as good results as the bright children in the grammars. Of course non selective comps and non selective private schools get worse results than selective schools but that is just to be expected.

Private schools if they lost charitable status coudl stop helping out with bursaries and the community, yes we might pay 20% VAT on the fees but the fees may go down a bit as all those efforts to help with bursaries and scholarships could be dropped so I am not so sure it would really hurt the schools if it came to that. However they do relieve the state of a lot of burdens and if all those private pupils went into state schools suddenly it is certainly going to be a big burden on the state sector. London is already currently faced with massive over supply of children to primary schools.

Yes the top kids in comps can do as well as grammars but this is a minority of the comp intake; this is consistent with my experience as I have a child at a super selective and a streamed comp. I think the kids at the super selective benefit from being taught above and beyond the curriculum but the comp kids benefit from slightly lower offers from universities.

I don't think the shortage of school places in London can be solved by creating bursaries at independents, funded by the state or anyone else. I also think full or even partial bursaries are quite few and far between at London girls' schools anyway, so have a minimal impact on fees for other families.

I think it's an excellent idea. Far better than the current divisive system which is primarily money-based. There should definitely be more selection on ability IMHO, to counteract there being so much selection purely on money.

Xenia, we're probably talking about different Sutton Trust reports, then, and on a thread I've yet to spot.

BeingFluffy: Private schools cannot just have charitable status "removed". If they are to be wound up as charities, then assets must be sold and proceeds used in accordance with strict regulation by the Charity Commission. This would mean, in practice, closure. It would cause enormous (though shirt-term) problems in the state sector whilst it struggled to absorb the additional pupils.

I was responding to Xenia's point about tax breaks for those paying for private education which I thought was a wind up. I don't particularly care if some schools have charitable status. I think most independent schools do not have a great deal of spare income from fees alone. If independent schools want to boost their results by attracting some very able kids on bursaries, again that is up to them. Overall the numbers are very small.

I object to state money being given to private schools to fund bursaries because it seems designed to cream off the more able in the state sector and be to the detriment of the majority who use state education.

Yes, the latest Sutton Trust report. I read through a lot of it and quoted the conclusions such as they are on this thread www.mumsnet.com/Talk/education/1496273-Grammar-schools-a-think-piece

Surely any comprehensive school state or private will get worse results than if you have a school only with pupils with an IQ of say 120+? Why should that matter?
Do we think less bright children benefit from being educated with bright ones, that it rubs off on them?