Grammar schools -a "think" piece.

[seeker]

New readers start here. I live in a small town in Kent. We have a fully selective secondary education system,- children take 11+ tests in Sepetember of year 6, and are allocated either to the grammar school ( the "top" 23%) and the high school- the remaining 77%, which consists of those that don't reach the required mark in the test and those that didn't take it at all. The grammar school is an OFSTED outstanding school, with 99% a-c. The high school is a good school, with, if I recall 40% a-c. It has excellent vocational facilities and very good sport. There are no comprehensive schools in any sort of travelling distance. One or two children go to other selective schools in the area, and a few go private, but the vast majority go to either school A or school B. ( It's important to say here that I am only talking about a fully selective system here. The areas where there is a grammar school for the very top of the top 5% and all but comprehensives for everyone else are a different discussion)

The reason I think this is interesting in a broader context is that this is the model which many people would like to see replicated by the introduction of more grammar schools. To a grammar school enthusiast, it looks perfect. I think they sometimes forget that more grammar schools means more "secondary moderns" .

Living in in the middle of such system, is possible to see it's damaging, divisive consequences.

We have a town where children, at the age of 10, are told that they are not good enough for the grammar school, with all the societal and psychological problems this produces. The supporters of the system say that it isn't a "pass or fail" system- it is just an "allocation of appropriate school" system Which would be fine- if wasn't described as "passing" and "failing". If the town was not full of congratulations and comiserations when the results come out in March. If the children themselves were not fully aware-because they are not stupid- that tests produce passes and failures. And if the grammar school did not have less than 2% children with SEN and 2% FSM -against the high school's 27% and 22%.

Basically what we have is a comprehensive school cohort, but rigidly separated. The top set are educated completely separately half a mile away. There is no opportunity for kids at the high school to move into that top set if they suddenly discover an academic streak at the age of 12 or 13, and no opportunity for a Grammar school child to move if they discover that they are not as academic as they appeared on one day in their 10th September. Which a properly streamed comprehensive would provide. Such a school would also provide a proper top set, as well as opportunities for the less able. But there would be the possibility of movement. AND, crucially, you wouldn't have a massive group of kids who have been told, in however sugar coated a way, that they have failed at the age of 10. What's, as they say, not to like?

I mean...... doyou really think that mrs Windsor or Mrs Wales or Mrs cambridge even ( in due course) will eant to pay to have their child educated with those in local authority care? Really? What makes you think those from other paying families are any different?

As I said, we may get away with one ( and boarding is full anyway). As for our charitable status. The school does many things to help in the local community and this does include working with local state schools. We often invite them to come to us, but frequently, they REFUSE! It isnt just us.

We will wait and see jabed. I have my rose tinted specs and I don't think that everyone thinks the same as you. ( if they did it isn't the sort of society that I want to live in where we don't care what happened to the weakest and most vulnerable as long as we never have to be involved)
My school had a children's home in the catchment area (primary and secondary) and they were not problem pupils)
Schools that are struggling financially may not want to, but well established top schools, won't have a problem.

I will also put this in the mix if I may - and you may not realise this. There is a cultural difference which can extend far beyond what you think.

IME ( only anacdotal).many children from lower class homes , even from decent working class homes and certainly those from care tend to be rather too familiar . I dont know where it comes from. In my school environment that would be considered, at best cheeky, at worst, insolent. They would be quickly disciplined - which brings us to another issue - many of those pupils I teach take their "discipline" ( detention etc) on the nose and get it over and move on. In my last state school we were always chasing them round and they always gave loads of mouth when we did get them into detention etc.
That would just not be acceptable in my school

Vhildren copy. They copy por manners quickly. So , even if not "disruptive" by your standards, such behaviour would change the ethos and culture of the school.

I know no one wants to hear it said, but its at the back of a lot of minds. The unspeakable, often thought.

There would only be a few of them- they would be the ones to change. I have seen it happen. They would be isolated and surrounded by a new culture - you join in pretty quickly.

I think that if you were to ask them at Eton if 4 looked after DC s were going to 'lower the tone' they would laugh!

Oh jabed do quit the gritty reality and the cheap novellete air ('The unspeakable, often thought.').

What very limited thinking.

There would only be a few of them- they would be the ones to change. I have seen it happen. They would be isolated and surrounded by a new culture - you join in pretty quickly

What would be thepoint then if this is for the very few? I thought the idea was to open up opportunities for many? We already offer scholarships for the few - nothing stopping a cared for child or any other " deprived " child applying ( or getting ) one of those. At least those children want to come to us and are not just being sent by the LA.

As for a few not pulling the others down. I think you will find that bad manners spread much more quickly than good ( just look at how widespead " chav culture has become everywhere.

As for eton laughing at the suggestion their "tone" would be lowered - of course they laugh - we all do, but we also know we wont be taking these kids any time soon. Sorry - more gritty cheap novel. Unfortunately often such novels are refelecting something going on.

hmm, I think it could be a tough environment for them if not managed properly. A friend of mine was a 'scholarship boy' at one of the top public schools and they were ostracised and bullied by the others. These kids certainly don't need that, but I'd like to think things would be better these days - it would need careful monitoring though.

Time will tell-personally I think that it will work perfectly.
A good job for Yellowtip's father that people didn't say 'oh-he's foreign and poor he won't fit in' or that my gggggrandfather wasn't just sent off to the workhouse as 'undesirable'.
Hopefully the best schools will see it as worthwhile-the struggling ones might have to take note of prejudiced parents like jabed.

DH1 was a 'scholarship' boy at a selective private school and he didn't have any problems.

And how do you suppose Direct Grant schools used to work so effectively then jabed?

I was at such a school on the edge of London in the days before the area had become gentrified. The whole school was selective, the majority of the pupils were fee-paying, drawn from the rich Surrey hinterland with a parental profile that one might expect to be similar to that at any top fee-paying school. And a large minority were the top echelon of the 11+, who paid no fees and whose backgrounds were random, but to my certain knowledge included many who were shockingly, depressingly poor. We all mixed seamlessly, with a total disregard for money and class. That was one of the most important aspects of my education, even had I not been a mongrel myself.

Do you think you are actually speaking for the parents jabed or purely for yourself?

"A friend of mine was a 'scholarship boy' at one of the top public schools and they were ostracised and bullied by the others."

And of course nothing like that goes on at other educational institutions [rolls eyes]

Kids pick on kids regardless of socio economic backgrounds. Kids get bullied because they are clever or because they aren't clever. Or because they aren't sporty or because they are geeky and so on and so on.

DS isn't at a 'top public school' so I can't comment on what happens there but recently a boy at his school was suspended for two days for making a series of anti semetic 'jokes' over the period of a time (someone finally reported him to a teacher). More recently a boy spent a day, isolated from his peers, with the school matron because he had shouted out a racist remark while in the midst of some argument over something silly.

I doubt if the above occured in a state school it, with all its LEA dictated procedures, would have acted as swiftly.

exotic it can and should work OK, but just saying the school culture/ethos must be right or the kids could have a miserable time.

Poosh bullying of any kind can happen at any place, but in this particular instance the institution seemed to be set up to encourage it. (Lets get the children from a different background together, treat them differently and put them in a different House to the others, seems to me a recipe for disaster)

Yes it would happen every bit as swiftly Poosh.

Jabed is probably right and sums up very well all the things I find most despicable about private schools and some of the people who use and teach in them.

Yuck.

I might expect it of rather dull but over ambitious parents at a second rate school TOSN but jabed assures us his is a top performing school, so I'd have hoped for less narrow, more enlightened views tbh.

I doubt if the above occured in a state school it, with all its LEA dictated procedures, would have acted as swiftly.

That's another pile of crap, I'm afraid. There's a room for isolation in every state secondary I have encountered, called different things in different schools, but for the same purpose. The LEA have nothing whatsoever to do with teachers decisions to put a child 'in iso'. Dds friend was in it all day for in appropriately coloured hair, and I've heard of it used after fights, bad behaviour, etc.

My mum went to a Haberdashers school back in the 40s/50s, which in those days was a direct grant school 35% made up of "town girls" and the rest fee paying + borders. Now its a fee paying school. My mum was a town girl, passed her county exam and 11+ and has very fond memories of her school days there and at 75 still goes to the odd reunion. Having 35% of the school from the great unwashed didn't stop the fee payers still wanting to go there.

A child at my ds's primary school was internally excluded for two days for calling him a "retarded cunt". The exclusion started an hour after the incident.

And once again TOSN you have demonstrated your 'open minded-ness' :o MN regularly have threads about bullying issues and how the school isn't doing anything about it but hey, why not tell Poosh she is talking crap because stuff like that doesn't happen at your leafy comprehensive :o

Ok, it was probably inacurate to say that it was an LEA thing but reading some of the posts here on MN I find it hard to believe that state schools in general have zero tolerance for this sort of thing.

State schools have to be inclusive. Private schools don't. They know that fee paying parents will walk if the school gets a reputation so disruptive children are given a chance and parents are called in. If the problem continues then the child is out at the point where a state school would have to contend with a this is your final final-ish warning or appeals to the LEA.

1. You know nothing at all about the comprehensive my daughter is at, so don't assume.
2. I also said there is such a system in place in every comprehensive I have heard of or been in.
3. State schools don't just think, well they're not paying customers so we don't care whilst private have to work for a buck: a state school which is known for not dealing with bullying or bad behaviour will suffer too, and losing pupils is not good news for them either.
4. Your doubt is just manifestly wrong and not borne out by any sort of knowledge, and as such it is offensive. And crap.
5. Are you worried about the levels of racism at your child's school? I would be.

but just saying the school culture/ethos must be right or the kids could have a miserable time.

They can do that anywhere!
State schools act swiftly on racist language etc.
The boys who lived near me and when to a top fee paying school had language from the gutter when they thought no one was listening! The only difference is that they know when to modify it.
I also know someone who was working as an electrician at a top public school during the holidays and what they found in secret stashes around the place was quite an eye opener!
A good comprehensive has to sell itself these days-they can't afford to have disruptive pupils or parents remove their DCs.

sorry went -not when

"Poosh bullying of any kind can happen at any place, but in this particular instance the institution seemed to be set up to encourage it. (Lets get the children from a different background together, treat them differently and put them in a different House to the others, seems to me a recipe for disaster)"

A lot of parents shun private schools because they want their kids to mix with children from different backgrounds. You seem to be saying that the problems at public school arises from mixing children from different backgrounds

DS goes to an 'ordinary' indie. Judging from the cars at parents' evenings the families range from Bentley and high end Mercedes drivers to Ford Mondeo drivers or in my case Honda. Ok its not Eton. Ok my DS isn't fresh from some deprived council estate but I see no signs of people treating him or the other 'ordinary' kids differently because of their background.

In any case, the public school anecdote is from a couple of decades ago, a time when bullying wasn't the issue it is today, both at state schools and at indies.