Does it make a difference if school 11-16 vs 11-18?

[3rdnparty]

We are looking at moving and choosing a senior school is a big part ds will be yr4...when we move... most senior schools near us include a 6th form as did mine and dh... but there seems to be a mix where we are looking at moving too...
an 11-16 which gets fab ofsted and locally v good feedback.. the 11-18 gd ofsted and good feedback as well! My initial preference is for the 11-16 as is smaller but friend whose a teacher just mentioned in passing 11-18 better as more 'aspirational' (not sure thats the right word) .... are they right do more kids do A levels at schools with 6 forms...??

I think it depends what the other post-16 options are like, really.

Traditionally I suppose it does seem more 'aspirational' to have a sixth, as you say: but now that everyone will be staying on anyway, I suppose things will change a lot.

What's the 16-18 provision like? Is it colleges or do people tend to move to other schools' sixth forms?

Where I grew up, none of the state schools had sixth forms, so everyone went to one of two colleges, so provision at these was pretty good. However, if only a minority are in this situation, provision might not be so robust.

Personally, I enjoyed the change at 16 and I think it made the move to university a lot easier, at least compared to some of my peers who did 11-18.

If there is a 6th form college then the range of possible courses on offer should be much wider than an individual school can provide. Sometimes schools cannot offer "unusual" combinations of subjects for staff/timetabling reasons. The flip side is that if your kid is not ready to be in a uni-like environment at 16 it can seem too daunting. From a teachers viewpoint, it is more interesting/stretching to teach 6th formers at least some of the time so arguably you might get better qualified teachers (e.g. to PhD level) in an 11-18 than in an 11-16?

I agree with the point about teachers that TooManyJobs makes above. I also really dislike the idea of 15/16 year olds being top of the tree in a school.

I personally think that having a sixth form changes the whole feel of a school but that's just my opinion.

Well of course kids do more A Levels at schools with VI forms, they can't do them in an 11-16 school.

I teach in FE, and personally I would recomend everyone leaves school at 16 and goes to college where there is a wider range of subjects, there is less chasing up and you are taught by specialists trained to teach adults.

VI form is just an extension of school and most can only offer A Levels, and then only a few. If your child is more suited to a Diploma - that will still get them into uni, the school won't tell you because they want to keep your child in school.

Also funding, schools get more funding for VI form students, but they don't have to spend the money on them, they can spend it all on year y7 if they want.

sashh makes some good points. my secondary had a sixth form but I was one of the few who eschewed it to do a-levels at the local FE college instead. to me, that felt like a definite break with school and the start of being grown-up, whereas my friends who'd stayed at the sixth form were still very much part of the school world, which seemed a bit cossetted and young somehow, esp still wearing the uniform and being in the same buildings. the subject range was also much wider at the college and the focus was more tightly on the 3 or 4 subjects you were studying because you'd just hang out with the people in those classes, whereas at the sixth form you were still part of a school year.

should add, my school was also v childish about me leaving to go to college, as there was a kind of entitled sense from them that you really ought to stay on there and all their careers advice was skewed to that, rather than giving you options. so when i annoyed them by choosing the college instead, they reallocated an end of year prize i'd won to someone else, claiming that the prizes could only go to pupils carrying on to their sixth form. v insular approach. though not all will be like this of course.

Hi thanks for your replies - apparently most go to the nearest college which is this one..
www.cirencester.ac.uk/index.php?cookies=accept&

however another chunk go to the combined 6th form of the local grammer schools and other local high school...

ds quite young for his age and has mild sn which means the grammer likely to be too stressful at 11 even if he had extra time to do the paper.....

Personally I think having a sixth form definitely gives the younger DCs something to aspire to.

The standard of music, art and drama my DD is exposed to is way beyond anything you'd get without the A'level groups.

She's a very good singer and having that standard of senior choir is exactly what she needs.

Also, I can't imagine very good teachers not wanting to teach A'level.

Apparently students get, on average, half an ?A? level better by attending a ?6th Form College?. Also, going to a ?6th Form College? is like half a step to University.

They have a wider range of subjects, there is a campus atmosphere and the students have more responsibility and self discipline.

It depends on the young person. DD1. stayed on to 6th form and did really well. DD2 went to college she wanted to do drama and her drama teacher said college would be better than school. She actually thrived in college and it was much better than school for her. DD3 also went to college as they were better at supporting pupils with learning difficulties.

couldn't disagree more with sashh, we have a huge sixth form - 5 groups in each year for my subject and as a result we attract and keep excellent teachers(many with PhDs and university level teaching). I don't think any of them would stay without a sixth form, i know i wouldn't.
Ours don't wear a uniform, there is a smart dress code, results are extremely high and much higher than sixth form colleges locally. We do offer some vocational courses, but would not hesitate to suggest to some students that they might be better suited elsewhere.
It is very diffferent to main school, my relationships with the sixth formers are much more on an equal footing to those in main school, but many students cannot cope with the lack of pastoral care and lack of supervision at sixth form colleges. Every year we get a number of students into y12, resitting y12 escaping from a sixth form college where they have sunk like a stone - far exceding the numbers leaving us at that stage to transfer to college.

I went to a school without a VI Form and you could taste the lack of aspiration. Certainly as a teacher I wouldn't have taught in a school without one. However, going to VI Form College was fantastic.

Soem advantages of sixth forms are:

• school attracts stronger teachers as they enjoy teaching at higher level.
• pupils on their way up the school see and hear what unis top 6th formers go to and that can motivate them to aim high. If the end of school life is what GCSEs you get, it's more limited.
• Teaching groups can be tiny.

It might be a bonus but it wouldn't be a deal clincher for me. My son goes to a "good" school without sixth form and we chose it over 2 closer schools with 6th forms as it is a better school in other ways... above average cohort, better exam results, good pupil behaviour, better Ofsted Report, nice atmosphere, etc. It's a lovely school, with or without sixth form.

The advantage of an 11-16 school is that the year 11s get more responsibility and are 'top dogs' for that year which is quite good for them and going to a new and usually bigger sixth form college prepares them for university to an extent. The disadvantages are that the higher calibre teachers are less likely to be there and they don't get to glimpse what goes on at A level in the different subjects so they may make less informed A level choices.

We have some really good colleges in the are so I would not go for a 11-18 necessarily. It really does depend on what else is on offer.

personally I like 11-18 schools because

• They have young men ( and women) at the top of the school who have chosen to stay in education, and are role models to the younger boys ( and girls) .

I was hugely in awe of the 6th form when I was a 12 yr old squirt and I would prefer my DS to be looking up to 17/18 yr old young men than 15/16 year old boys.

I've seen a lot of 16 year olds screw up the transition from rural comprehensive school to the local city college of FE - there is no dedicated sixth form college round here. Its too big a jump too soon. they mess up A levels and end up taking 3 years by going to a school sixth form a year later .

I spoke to a Head Teacher of a school recently who said he had great difficulty attracting calibre staff; he thought that was a major reason was a lack of Sixth Form at his school. He thought teachers wanted more of an intellectual challenge than GCSE downwards provides and they would probably need experience of teaching A' level if they moved on to other jobs in the future.

My experience of DCs attending a school without a 6th form is that for the school there is no thought to what the students might be doing next. This has meant that DD1 finished maths last November. She is doing stats but is worried that she has forgotten a lot of maths before starting A level in September - a 10 month gap!

We have a local 6th form college with nearly 1500 students. It has something for everyone and is a good stepping stone before post 18 life. (IMHO). It offers a wide range of A levels, the IB and lots of other courses which would not be possible in a 11-18 school. The kids have more freedom/responsibility which suits some but not all. I think it works well and is generally preferable to a 11-18 school.

Worth bearing in mind that it is much more difficult to get into a sixth form as an external applicant, as the internal students get priority.
In our area, the sixth form college is dire, so all the schools with sixth forms are heavily oversubscribed, both in yr7 and sixth form.

We are looking for a sixth form for DD1 yr10, and finding that some don't even bother with open days as they have 1500 applicants for < 100 places.
Reading between the lines, most successful external applicants have 8 A/A* (predicted) GCSE grades.
At least her current school has a sixth form, so she will have somewhere she can go on the minimum grade requirements, as a back-up.

If you are in area with excellent sixth form colleges, then it matters less.

I would never teach in a school without a sixth form, and neither would thereat of my dept (we've discussed it!). Not to say there aren't advantages toboth systems.

I live in fear of our 6th form being taken away - as is the current fashion round here. I love teaching in a school with a 6th form. I also agree that it's nice to have adults at the top of teh school as opposed to kids. 16 year olds think too much of themselves as it is; 6th formers remind them that they're not grown up yet.

I think a lot depends on the child though. We have kids who go to 6ht form college, then come back. My sister would've been better without the freedom to bugger off and have a smoke in 6th form college.