A grades are only worth a C in Hong Kong?

[Hamishbear]

Read this recently GCSEs

My first thoughts are these are different exam systems (?) so surely comparing apples with pears?

Having said that, a letter appeared a day or so later from the guardian of an Vietnamese girl studying in the UK. She allegedly found the children in Vietnam were so far ahead academically compared to those in the UK that the girl would have to drop back a year if she returned to Vietnam. I suspect this is about a different system being in place and suspect it would always have been the case rather than UK standards suddenly declining.

Should we be concerned?

I don't know if the exams are the same but going by the comments of Chinese friends on temp assignment to London, their children are typically a year ahead academically.

The difference is cultural as opposed to innate intelligence. I mean, you rarely hear a Chinese mum go - I don't want to put pressure on DC. There is more to life than academics.

Should we be afraid? No, we should be very afraid. :)

No doubt we can expect posters to go on about the Nobel Prizes awarded to British scientists and how we have all these great literary geniuses.

Well, when your job head overseas you'll have plenty of time to rejoice in the great minds churned out by the English education system.

The comments on the Telegraph thread make interesting reading re: Nobel Prizes etc.

I think people have no idea what's going on in China, how fast it's growing and changing. I was in Bejing recently the money there is astounding, the Bentley dealerships, the largest Louis Vuitton shop I've ever seen etc.

This article is interesting as well - its about Singapore trying to encourage creativity in its students rather than just cramming for exams.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-17891211

Yes, they've also got rid of some testing in lower Primary (although many parents still want it). Some expat high fliers use local schools as they like the Singaporean work ethic and 'cool to be smart vibe'. Bilingual schools (Mandarin) also a bonus for the far-sighted.

There are some amazing enrichment centers that run 'Future Leaders' programmes that are incredibly interesting & creative.

I was speaking to a former colleague last year. Nowadays their IT work is much more closely linked to India than when I was there, with far more Indian staff working in the UK some of the time. She said the ones with children don't bring their children over here because our schools don't match up to the ones they're at in India. So yes, do indeed be afraid.

(Bear in mind this is a second hand, half remembered conversation from at least six months ago...)

My Chinese friends, while accepting that UK schools aren't as academic as the ones back home, are keen for their DCs to be educated here, partly for snobby reasons (ie "MY kids are internationally educated") and partly to improve their English.

This is Interesting

If you're based in China or Singapore for a few years and have young children it's possible to get them to learn Mandarin to a high standard. I've friends who have done this, their 8 year old children are now completely fluent in Mandarin and can write the characters and read incredibly well (for age) too.

It's curious that English friends are generally reluctant to do this. They say what's the point if they are going back to the UK eventually? 'Mandarin is just a fad' 'there's no point them learning as everyone speaks English in China' etc. Those for whom English is already a second language seem much keener. Many perhaps miss a real opportunity?

I can understand the 'fad' comment. As a kid the fad was Japanese and Spanish what with Japan's then seeming business omnipotence and Latin American briefly being touted as the next boom region. Well, we all know what happened in the past few decades. Short to medium term, China will boom. Don't know about long term.

In any case, IMO raising 'global kids' is more of a mindset thing rather than an immersion thing. I recall having dinner in HK with a Brit who was brought up there and he made a disparaging comment about what the locals ate. I replied that it was no more 'disgusting' then us Europeans eating pigs, rabbits and lamb. He would have none of it. Eating dog meat is barbaric. Full stop. End of conversation.

Being brought up there didn't make him a 'global kid'. Having Said that, as a kid he was educated at a UK boarding school.

It depends on the English school. There is huge demand abroad for the better English schools, day and boarding (in the UK private sector which is often a year ahead of the state sector anyway).

While its true that many Asians who appreciate academic achievement tend to perceive the English education superior to others, evidenced by the fact that international schools following the English curriculum are always highly respected and far more expensive than their peers eg Lycees or American international schools, people tend to forget that the quality they see at these British schools is only available at the equivalent independent schools in the UK and that the vast majority of British schools are much less academically minded. The demise of grammar schools has exacerbated the problem as comprehensives guide pupils into non academic subjects to get the grades and boost the schools league table position. Being an academically minded kid at a comprehensive means being bullied while at any school in the Far Eas it means being respected. So yes we should be worried. Unless true academic performance is improved at comprehensives ie at least getting 50% of pupils getting basic core subjects at gcSe such as the English Bacc the Uk will keep churning out more casual labourers as their education guided and the Far East will produce more scientists for the world.

Xenia - I agree that there is a demand for the 'better English schools' but what I am saying is that the average secondary school is lagging behind your average HK secondary school.

The cause is on show for all to see here on MN. How often do you read a post about how a mum doesn't want to pressure her DC with the 11+? Recently I posted how my 11yr old was up to 10pm revising the night before a test. Various posters were quick to express their shock and horror.

I am not saying that my parenting method is the right one. I'm just saying whilst I am in the minority here, were MN to be launched in Asia many MNetters would quickly find themselves in the minority.

Hmm. depends. BF children attend one of the best indie schools in HK. As yet, the comparisons between my dcs state school primary and his indie are about the same. But they do an awful lot of music and craft ECA and Mandarin on the Ipad on the way into school whilst here the ECA generally are more sporting. HK is an Asian economic hub with a concentrations of wealthy parents, who have 24-7 live in maids - the culture of expectation there is far more high pressure. Think Tiger Moms! I work in a high achieving state secondary school and here the differences become more apparent, as you might expect with good state vs good private. Whilst I have no doubt that on the written based subjects (English, humanities etc) my students compare more favourably (iGCSE results bear this out) in the subjects prized in HK (Maths, sciences, languages) then HK comparably do better. My BF has the global job he has because he has that math/science logic and hard work ethic, but also the 'soft-skills' he thinks his state-school UK upbringing gave him. But I know Tiger Moms who timetable soft-skill opportunities too!

Will see if I can link a blog...

Can't find the HK one, but this blog is a good example.

She explains the difference in her approach to her Danish husband's to education. You then have to scan down to her 3yr old learning road safety (don;t worry if you can't get hold of an electric car!) and coin sorting

We certanily seem to cultivate some pretty good leaders from the English private schools capable of making decisions in a way cultures which rely more on consensus fail to do. However I am not complacent. Certainly the East is doing pretty well at present compared with the West. However a lot of children in the East are not in favourable economic situations and may ghave both parents working away from home and be stuck in their local village where I suspect they aren't getting the sort of education you might get in the Chinese capital so it is probably fairly hard to generalise. The same can be said of much of India.

How to organise your child's toys is my favourite - I aspire to her orderly precision and then look at my 3dcs who have the messy gene and weep!

@report - I don't think its linked to affluence. At university I had HK friends who parents had ordinary jobs back home. Both parents worked and in some cases one or both had two jobs. All so that their DCs can get a UK university degree and hopefully a well paid job upon graduation (and support them in their old age).

Granted, an educated and affluent mom would be pushing music, internships etc but you will find that the guy with the hawker stand will be just as aspirational.

The interesting thing is that the term tiger moms was coined by Westerners. To the Chinese this is the norm so why would they give it a label?

I have friends who term themselves TigerMoms partly to explain their approach to western friends, but also they have appropriated the name for themselves, there's lots of in-jokes and humour about it. I don't mock, some aspects appeal!

HK schooling was mentioned in the OP which is why I responded to the thread, my point of reference are the HK international schools which the high earning send their dcs. But what you say is true. This, from that blog, explains it better than I can:

"There is a fundamental cultural difference between the East and the West. It is very difficult for the West to understand the East. Vice-versa, it is very difficult for the East to understand the West. Both view education as very important, but it is viewed as TOP priority in the East. The East views education of their children as the ULTIMATE importance worth sacrificing ALL. Not to the same crazy extend in the West. This is seen in our home - being an East-West family. It is very difficult for Florian to understand my craziness. I think I understand Florian, but maybe I haven't quite understand him. I pray that Florian will understand me more in this area, and that I will understand him better too through his cultural len.

The traditional Chinese mom will sacrifice her life - LITERALLY - for the education of her children. In this regards, I am the most traditional Chinese mom of all. I see myself as being poured out, my everything, for the education and development Joshua. The day he is grown up, I will be all poured out and aged. And no, unlike other traditional Chinese, I don't expect anything in return from Joshua. I don't expect any repayment. This is not how I view filial piety. I pour out myself willingly for Joshua with no regrets.

Someone told me that I am paying too much, in terms of sacrifice, in order to do school with Joshua. I would have nothing left for myself. And what about my own personal and professional development? For a working mom, time is so precious. After deducting work time, I do not have much time left. Whatever little time I have left, the majority is spent on Joshua and his "schooling". I have no other choice. I am poured out. I accept it, if I no longer have personal or professional development. Tired as I am, yet I enjoy it so much. I don't have time to myself, yet school time with Joshua is actually time to myself. It is a hobby and an enjoyment. It is a form of relaxation for me."

It's sexist and morally wrong. Women do it mostly, not men. Also it is too much pressure on children. That is why you don't get the same freedom of thought and skills companies need. I don't think the Eastern way is better. I think it also ignores most psychology and can caused psychological damage and perpetuates that system. The sooner it dies out through Westernisation (as it tends to do over time as people move here or have our influences) the better.

Xenia - The people that blow up themselves and others are not typical of Muslims in much the same way that the IRA are not typical of the Irish and tiger moms, as viewed by Westerners, are not typical of the Chinese.

Sure there are some that are mega pushy Chinese moms but read the comments about how some presumably Brit mums are tutoring their 3 year old with the view of landing a coveted place at their highly selective London Grammar school. THEN come back and tell me that over pushy moms is a Chinese phenomenon.

As for your comment about too much pressure, this brings us back to my earlier comment about how some MNetters talk about not pressuring their kids with 11+ /CE. I 'pressured' mine for 6 months. Now they are thriving at their selective schools while others are posting to support threads about not getting any offers or having to go to the sink school.

I am not saying that kids should be treated like the kids featured in Tiger Mom stories in the media but these are extreme characters used to sell newspapers and books.

Your average Chinese mom is more likely to be similar to your pushy grammar/indie mom than the OTT characters featured in BBC programs.

... I especially liked your prediction that the obviously superior Western method of parenting will prevail once those damned foreigners get a taste of the way we do things and realise our way is better :o

I don't think I'd like to be Joshua.

Way to encourage Little Emperor syndrome imho.

I hope when my grown-up children look at me in a few years' time they will not see a poured out and aged woman, but one that can still serve as a bit of an example and inspiration.

But of course that doesn't mean there aren't other things we could learn from East Asian education systems.

Though looking at the blog, it seems as if Joshua's mum spends plenty of time doing other things than pouring herself into Joshua- probably more of a facon de parler than an actual description of their life.

Why do people persist in focusing in on extreme characters?

Somebody upthread was talking about raising global kids. I think that this was what he/she had in mind. I mean, I listen to people generalise about Tiger Moms, insular gun totin Americans, women hating Muslims and so on when in reality these are extreme caricatures and anyone who has spent time in these countries beyond a two week 'holiday of a lifetime' would know this.

Fair point, Poosh. This woman may well be an extreme caricature. And even what she said may well just be a figure of speech- the rest of the blog seems to show her more as a Montessori parent than anything else.

The question is more: what are the features that distinguish Asian educational principles from ours and how much of that do we think is important and desirable to take on?

Personally I wouldn't mind seeing a bit more rote learning in British education; it is quite useful to learn how capacious human memory really is. And better maths would certainly seem a good idea.

At the same time I do think we should hang onto the attitude of questioning authority (at least some of the time).

Chances are that all education systems can learn something from one another.