Fixed period exclusions from school

[BumpingFuglies]

How effective do you think they are from the child's point of view?

My son has been excluded for 2 days (not for the first time) for being rude to staff and fighting. This is in accordance with school policy.

The exclusion serves to remove a disruptive student so that others can continue their education in a calm environment, as is their right. I completely agree with this. The exclusion is also made as a punishment however and this is where I am not sure if it works.

In reality, my son gets an extra 2 days off school. He has set work to do and I get him up at normal time, but he still views it as a day off. If he had "in-school" exclusion, he would still be in the regulated environment but separated from other students. So where is the deterrent and the concept of punishment?

What does everyone think?

In fairness to the OP- and bearing in mind I have no idea of her personal circumstances- I think there are children for whom it is virtually impossible to make exclusion a punishment, because they are so unhappy or so badly suited for school life or so maladjusted to the general pleasures of life that even sitting in a bare room in disgrace with nothing to do would seem preferable to them. If you have a child in that position, then you will need to think seriously about how you tackle this to help them find some kind of motivation in life.

It can also happen if a school dishes out a punishment very frequently that it loses its terror and becomes almost a badge of honour. This happened to dc's school during an interregnum when a nervous acting head started using exclusions as a standard punishment to the tune of several exclusions a week for minor offences; from being the stuff of nightmares and source of shame in the comminity they became a shrug-of-the-shoulder matter and oh-you-got-one-too matter, which was obviously not good for discipline.

Yes, exactly that Nice. Even though it's half term and the exclusion days are not officially until next Monday and Tuesday. He's also doing school work. He's miserable. We've had many talks about the seriousness, the future, letting me down, letting himself down etc. The culture at school just seems to be that they don't see exclusion as the "ultimate" punishment.

but Fuglies most/nearly all of the students in your DS's school will be quite clear about this, if you were to sample a random selection they would all know that exclusion is extremely serious, and you already say the school interview before readmittance, what else do you want the school to do - as I say the internal exclusions are for less serious offences. He is aware that this will be staying on his record I take it.
Like niceham we virtually never exclude before a series of internal isolations - this is a very serious escalation in the behaviour management system of any school.
I don't know what else to say to you to make you understand that this is your responsibility and it is his life that he is messing up. He is moving towards a life with no qualifications, and all the consequences that brings with it.

I know it's my responsibility, and I'm doing all I can. As I keep saying it's not just my son who views it this way.

I work in a school with high standards of behaviour and part of the reason for this is that we exclude for things that other schools may not. However even within that environment exclusion is seen as the ultimate punishment. To be honest it has to be as there is no where else for a school to go, bar a permanent exlusion - which is where your son is heading if he keeps racking up exclusions. This must be made clear to your son. Again schools are reluctant to permanently exclude because of the cost. But if a number of fixed term exclusions have no effect this can leave the school with no choice.

Having said this, it is true that for some children exclusion is limited in its power. 2/3 of children excluded will have had a past exlusion , suggesting that it was not an effective deterrent.

If an exclusion is given for fighting, it is difficult to argue against as children need to be safe in school. However when an exclusion is given for an escalation in poor behaviour, often there is turbulence at home and an exclusion just throws them back into that environment.

Look at the cause, not the punishment.

Why is he fighting?

Why is he being rude to teachers?

What are the trigger points to avoid this happening again?

Deterrents/punishments only work if the person doesn't do it again.

With your son, OP, you, your son and the school need to work together to change things.

Your son is old enough to know how serious this could be. Why does he keep doing it?

Those are the questions I'd be asking.

IME a run of the mill fight will not end in a fixed term exclusion, it would usually result in a period of isolation or an internal exclusion. It must have been a quite serious fight with a concerning level of violence .

Children are also not excluded for being rude to staff, they are excluded for directly swearing at a member of staff.

I agree that you need to look at why your son is behaving in this way? Does he have issues with his temper? Has he had anger management? What is the long term support plan in school? Are you going into the school for regular review meetings? If your son were under my care I would be meeting with your every half term to review progress and set behaviour linked goals. I would be asking for their to be rewards and sanctions at home, to back up the school.

If it makes you feel any better, OP, DS got a 2 day external exclusion at the age of 6.
And yes I was mortified & live in dread of it happening again.
Not it's not effective, internal exclusions much better. DS got extra time with me, he hates school, so (from his short term childish perspective) what's not to like in an external exclusion?

As always it depends on the child . For some an external exclusion is the bolt they need to let them know that this behaviour will not be tolerated.

Too often though a pupil will be excluded a number of times, however who is to say that without the exclusion their behaviour would not have been worse.

DS and another boy were excluded for the fight. Other boy swore at DS and pushed him into a table. DS pushed him back and he fell over. Previous exclusion was for saying "No" when a teacher asked him to hand his phone over and he walked off.

DS has anger management counselling and is being treated for depression. He also has mentoring at school. I didn't say all this in the OP as it wasn't really the point I was trying to make, but there you go.

Although it's not the point you were trying to make, it does help from a stranger's perspective to see why they were excluded.

It sounds strange to me to give an out of school exclusion from what you describe. I've taught in a primary school where they wouldn't even get a row for speaking to teacher like that.

It does seem a bit extreme, but not when the exclusions themselves are not perceived as serious by the students, if you see what I mean?

Who was the teacher that he said no to? If a child refused to hand over a phone to me , a serious consequence would follow but I do not think it would be an external exclusion. If a child refused to hand over a phone to another member of staff someone like myself would be called in. However if your son had been involved in a number of incidents over a few days, refusing to hand something over to a senior member of staff may have been the final trigger for an exclusion .

A fight in a classroom is taken very seriously. Again it sounds more like an isolation or internal exclusion although it is difficult to say without being there.

Not sure about the teacher Nice, but I know it was after school in the bus queue. DS walked away and was disciplined the next day.

Maryz, yes it is difficult. DS sometimes doesn't want to go to school, so staying home seems like a good option, even if he has to deal with the Sergeant Major Bumping (me) barking orders at him.

Maryz sounds like tough times

As a generalised view (I apologise in advance)
I find that most pupils who prefer exclusion -even if they are confind to their bedrooms- often have access to computers, internet, games consoles, mobiles etc.

having said that there are pupils that have a phobia of school, or other issues which mean that they are happier to stay at home.

I've never been in this situation myself, but I do know not all schools use exclusion in the same way.

As I said above, a new acting head at our school suddenly started a spate of exclusions for things that a few weeks earlier probably would have got a stern talk from the head. The effect was to devalue the whole thing: when exclusions were handed out for fairly frivolous reasons, they lost their potential to bring the seriousness of an offence home to anyone they were used against.

And as someone who has struggled for years to get a school refusing child to school in the mornings, waking up at 4 o'clock every morning with that sinking feeling because morning is coming, I can only imagine the horror of having the school ring up a few hours later with an exclusion (fortunately never happens as dd turns her fear and anger on herself instead). Having dealt with a child who would rather cut herself or vomit than go to school and would spend the day huddled in bed staring at the wall rather than face her fears, I can't imagine exlusion in itself would be a hardship.

I have worked in schools where internal exclusion rooms have ended up being social rooms for those that do not like school.

these types of rooms are not that easy to set up or staff, and if you have a peer group that disrupts you can only have so many places set aside for them.

The incident with the phone outside of school - some may feel that this is a trivial incident but at our school, senior staff go out of school to ensure students get on buses, disperse in a reasonable manner. The locality that the school is in is central for students for atleast 6 secondary schools to catch / changeover buses. There have been incidents on the High Street, groups of students have converged on the area (not a daily / monthly occurence or even yearly but has happened).

Our students are expected to comply with staff requests on the High Street as well as in school. There have been incidents and for the welfare of the students and staff it is expected that our students do as requested. If a student does not do as requested (regardless of how trivial they see it) they are normally always fixed term excluded usually 2 or 3 days.

Hope that helps with why they may have excluded him.

From what has been said here, from the excluded child's point of view it may not be very effective - but that has to be offset against the good of all the other children in the school. If an individual student is disrupting the teaching/learning process then I think the school is justified in removing the child and asking the parents to teach him/her to behave appropriately before re-admitting.