Chemistry - degree course where, what to look for/avoid?

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DD is finishing GCSEs now. The plan is to take A levels in:

Chemistry
Biology
Maths
French

All are subjects DD loves.

To date DD has attended a fairly rough school but has done well despite some problems with provision in the school. She has been lucky to have had some truly inspirational teachers in the sciences.

DD is hoping to change to a completely different 6th form (outstanding in all areas , brand new science block).

DD wants to study chemistry at university. She is interested in spending a year abroad (she already has an A grade A level in a different language).

If you are a chemist and had your time again what would you do different? What do you wish your parents had done to help?

Neither DH or I are scientists. We want to help DD to achieve everything she is capable of.

What do we as parents need to be doing to help DD please?

If she wants to go to a prestigious university, she will face stiff competition. To make her UCAS application stand out she will need to communicate her passion for the subject.

Has she done anything outside of lessons, such as Salters' Chemistry Camp? There are lots of courses available in the school holidays, so she should aim to do something between L6 and U6. She should also read widely, including things like New Scientist.

She should take the opportunity to visit universities so that she has a good idea about the types of courses available. For an overview, the Unistats website is very helpful.

There are also lots of different types of chemistry courses, pure chemistry, applied, industrial and environmental. Does she have any specific interest in any of these, as for a more applied course you might want to look at the new 92 group unis.

She ought to seriously consider further maths rather than French. The degree will be tougher without it as she'll have to catch up with the maths.

And ditto for the importance of displaying a passion for Chemistry. It is absolutely paramount.

Thanks all, her interest is in the medical applications of chemistry though she does not want to train to be a doctor. Her plan is to study for a fairly mainstream degree and then focus on whatever specialism is for her at the postgraduate level.

I will direct her to the chemistry camps. She does already read a number of magazines in the science field so I will make sure that she understands the importance of that.

Something I dont know is how much the school will support her, to provide direction. What does an outstanding school do that a in and out of special measures less outstanding school doesnt?

Do you know the destination of the school leavers? Are there a decent number heading to good quality science/engineering courses?

Does the school have specific science UCAS tutors?

Does the school have educational visits for A-level chemists?

Headstart courses here would be worth looking into.

Also science fairs - the Cambridge Science Festival in march always has a free and excellent Chemistry lecture and lots of hands on stuff going on in the labs to participate in & opportunity to talk to students too. There may be similar things elsewhere too.

Would she not consider biochemistry if her interest is medical-based?

Are there any local chemical/petrochem/pharma/agro-chem companies locally that would offer work experience, sponsorship or holiday work?

I had an outstanding chemistry teacher who had a record of sending 5-10 kids a year to do chemistry at university. He took us to 1x local company, encouraged as many summer schools/camps as possible. DH is also a chemist and they do local school visits.

I went to uni in the pre-internet days, so sent off for loads of prospectuses and chose based on location (should have looked more at standing and research specialities ) and flexibility of course - the one I went for was very modular, e.g there was the option of US/EU years, modules in further maths/language.

Also, she could do the on-line part of the cambridge chemistry chaalenge and if her new school does it the yr12 competition and/or Chemistry olympiad too. These are all designed to stretch more able chemists and might be something to talk about on her personal statement if she does well.

Thanks all, some really good tips here.

I can see what is being said about further maths. DD is a good scientist but she is also a good linguist and she doesnt want to drop languages completely. She is interested in doing an Erasmus year at a Dutch university (assuming Erasmus still exists in a couple of years!). To do that the A level she already has and another language A level would help her.

This is the curse of our A level system. She will already be stretching herself to attempt 4.

I did mine a very long time ago, so may be out of date, I studied applied chemistry with a year's industrial placement and this was definitely the right course for me, although I also chose based on locality more than the course, I was just lucky that it turned out to be a good choice. The year in industry was the most important part of the course when it came to finding work afterwards, it made a huge difference, and I have always advised people to choose a course with this option.

I would recommend having a look at the Royal Society of Chemistry website, I'm not sure if you can join as a junior member at 16, but they do lots of things to support young people who are interested in careers in chemistry.

Also, if she does want to work in science, she does need to be thinking in terms of a PhD, her options will be limited without one.

Bristol University offer a Chemistry degree course with the option of spending a year in Europe - am not sure whether this is in industry or a European university but would be worth considering.
Do know some Chemists who have ended up working for European companies e.g. in Geneva so good language skills could be an asset if you are thinking beyond university entrance.

Quite a few Unis now do an option of Chemistry and a year overseas.
Tell her to look at the courses and find out which attract her most. Don't just choose one that doesn't really appeal to her interests because it is a university with a "better university".
A friend of mine from what was a polytechnic went on to do a doctorate at Oxford.
Do get her to look at the Royal Society of Chemistry, and the Royal Institution. It is important that she learns a bit more about the different branches of Chemistry, as lots of students seem to think something "medical" would be the most interesting. Personally, I think Pharmacology is a bit dull (and is a separate degree), and a lot of the stuff that happens in hospitals is smelly and unpleasant.

Thanks again, yet more good tips.

She is thinking that if she wants to have a career in science then it is the post graduate stage that she will specialise.

I am not a big fan of further maths. DS1 did Physics, Maths and Further Maths ---- and that is a lot of Maths.

A language course is a nice balance.

DS is studying Engineering at uni, and those students who did not do FM are well catered for. For a Chemistry degree, I can't imagine that FM makes any difference at all.

Thanks Claire, interesting what you say about Further Maths. To add to the advice DD has received my DB is worried that she isnt taking Physics. DB is a Physicist so I do detect a prejudice!

The problem is that the ideal combination of A levels for DD would be:

Chemistry
Biology
Physics
Maths
Further Maths
French

Somethings have to give!

Don't have any wobbles about subject choice. Only three subjects are required for UCAS and Chemistry, Biology and Maths is perfect for a medical/chemistry degree. French is superb for balance and enrichment.

Your DD will spend the next 6+ years doing science, so she should really benefit from the small diversion of a language.

You need to do Chemistry, ideally Maths, and one of Biology or Physics. In a dream world you would also do the other science and further Maths, but if you want a year abroad a language is a good idea ( it wasn't that long ago some Unis still needed you to study German). Further Maths is more crucial for Engineering.
I had to do Maths as part of my degree, the main advantage of having studied Further Maths was it made up for the awful Maths lecturers.

I'd leave out Physics, I did Physics, Chemistry and Pure Maths and I have never needed the physics. Biology would have been far better for me (I have mainly worked in healthcare). I did French A level at evening class in the couple of years after I graduated without too much difficulty. I'm doing biology modules at the OU now and really enjoying them.

I would also definitely have a look at local scientific companies, as MrsTrellis says, there are bound to be some out there, maybe call up their HR department and ask if anyone would be willing to let her visit for an afternoon or similar, it all helps.

It's worth looking in the job ads of your local paper, small companies often advertise locally and there will be contact details. Or look on the Monster jobs site and see what jobs are on offer locally for chemists.

I think DD is pretty fixed on her A level choices now. Good point about contact with local companies. I will encourage DD to look into it.

I do hope that sixth form lives up to DD's expectations. She is changing to a completely different school which was not available to her before 6th form (over the county border). When we took her to look round DD said 'tie me to the door handle, I'll be fine here 'til September'.

My DD had a Chem degree from Bristol- her 1st choice- and was also offfered a place at Bath, Nottingham and Southampton.

Some unis- such as Durham- want A2 maths- and rejected DD on the basis that she had only AS.

You'd be advised to look at something like the GOOD UNIVERSITY GUIDES- online- such as The Times, Guardian, and Telegraph- to get a feel for the best unis for the subject, but read the tables with some caution as they all come up with different league places!

Your DD should then look at the uni's own websites under Chemistry- to see which A levels they prefer, and what grades she needs. Most unis need another science subject and ideally maths.

Most unis in our experience require ABB or 3 Bs. Other "poly" unis will take lower grades.

My DD was enrolled on the 4 yr masters course with a year of industrial placement but she decided not to do that and went for the 3 yr BSc instead. maybe the wrong decision with hindsight, but students have to find their own placements which mean relocating anywhere in the UK, and it is very hard to get a placement- then they have to find the money to live/rent wherever they are.

Just one final thought- it is still VERY hard out there for all grads to find work. We thought DD would find it easy having a chem degree, but believe me, it is not!

What she has found is that many jobs need a higher degree, so she is thinking of trying to do a p/t masters - perhaps funded-in a specialism- and some jobs in research want a minimum of a PhD.

Try to get your DD to think longer term such as whether she wants to go into research, industry etc etc.

Thanks ameliagrey. DD is planning to study a fairly mainstream chemistry degree then specialise at the post graduate level. Her interest at the moment is toxicology. I think that the next couple of years at A level will help her to see what options are open.

At the moment her intention is to take all 4 subjects to A2 level. If anything has to give it will be French as she already has an A grade language A level.

Certainly know that the world of employment is not easy at the moment.

She has 15 months before having to think about what she will be doing in 4+ years' time.

During her AS course, she will start to build up ideas of what type of chemistry will interest her and the type that she will run a mile from.

The main thing is to be a sponge for information and to keep her options open as much as possible.

A flexible approach would be to do pretty straight chemistry for the first three years and diversify for her fourth year, eg in a related scientific specialism, or perhaps a more business/management approach. She won't really know what she wants to do until she gets there.

One area where I agree with TPA is that a plain old BSc in Chemistry won't open many doors. It was a struggle in my day (25+ years ago), where you had to offer a bit extra, eg Biochemistry or a Masters. It was fine if you wanted to be a lab technician or do something where 'any degree' was welcome.

Regarding the French, I believe that she can use science or environment as a focus, if she wanted to.