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Can i appeal if my child does not get into her preferred school

25 replies

linamumof3 · 26/04/2012 18:43

I just recieved a letter stating my child has been offered a place at her 2nd choice of school for reception. I really wanted to keep her where she is as her older sister is there and she is very settled as she has been there in nursery for 2 years and loves going there. How am i suppose to drop 2 kids off for 9am at different schools?????? How is it right that they expect to uproot your kids just because she's not baptised??? There are children who have applied and they dont even go to nursery there but they get a place in reception..Surely the kids who are in nursery should have more of a priority as they are already settled there....argghhhh i am sooo upset.

OP posts:
seeker · 26/04/2012 18:46

Is it a faith school? If so, then I don't think you've got much chance of a successful appeal if you don't meet the faith requirements, sorry.

5318008 · 26/04/2012 18:46

Attendance at nursery has no

5318008 · 26/04/2012 18:48

Bearing on being offered place at school

What is the criteria for appeal?

5318008 · 26/04/2012 18:49

Is there a sibling policy?

Fuchzia · 26/04/2012 18:52

I feel your pain but I think the only grounds for appeal are if they have mis-applied their criteria or if you have an expectional social or medical need. My closest four primary schools are all faith based. It sucks that they get state funding whilst my children have to walk miles across town.

SchoolsNightmare · 26/04/2012 19:41

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

linamumof3 · 26/04/2012 20:50

thanks for all the replies.... but how am i expected to both kids to school on time if they both go to different schools???????

OP posts:
5318008 · 26/04/2012 20:53

cultivate parents at school?

taxi the older older one, unless there is a school bus?

contact local childminders?

scottishmummy · 26/04/2012 21:03

faith school and not baptised,then you didnt meet a key criteria
im surprised that you are so surprised frankly
i dont see you have much basis for appeal

shershti · 26/04/2012 21:08

Hi,
My dd has been attending the nursery for our preferred school since last sept and we have just found out that we have not been offered a place at the school. We are 2nd on the waiting list at the moment.
The nursery is attached to the school and houses both the nursery children and reception class so my dd has got to know the children, teachers etc. The PAN for the reception, class 1 and class 2 is set at 27 NOT 30, so I was going to argue that the school is not yet at the legal limit of 30 children to 1 teacher at the infant class size appeal in June. (Next thing on my list is to find out whether the school as a whole can take and extra child without being at exceeding full capacity)

I have been told by other parents that in class 1 there are currently 28 or 29 children and there are 29 in reception right now according to the nursery teacher I spoke to this week. I am also really worried that my daughter will have problems going to the toilet if she were to go to the school we have been allocated as until she comes to know the adults around her, she will literally wet herself despite being prompted to use the loo as she is very private when it comes to toiletting.

I know they may not take this into account but I work full time and my husband has just found full time work after being unemployed for over a year and I may have to give up work as my sister in law has kids at the preferred school and helps us out - a lot! The thing is my dd is still getting used to both of us working as I used to work only weekends before her father was made redundant and I know that to be taken away from the school she is in, as she has been prepped to go there for the past year, and as her home life has changed drastically with our work patterns she will feel as if her whole life has changed which it will have done. Anyway, any advice would be much appreciated, I'm at my wits end, I can't eat or sleep very well with the stress, I feel so sorry for her and for anyone else reading this who is in a similar situation - I feel your pain ;-)

kilmuir · 26/04/2012 21:09

being at the nursery does not give you priority when places allocated.
Did you read the school admission policy as I too am surprised you are so surprised.
My friend relocated and she had 3 children at 3 different schools for the first term.

PanelChair · 26/04/2012 23:25

Linamumof3 - I'm guessing that this is one of those situations where you are out of catchment and out of catchment siblings are in a low priority group for admissions and/or this is a Catholic school which puts non-Catholic children and non-Catholic siblings a long way down the priority order for admissions.

Anyway, as SchoolsNightmare has said, you need to check whether this is an ICS appeal. If it is, your scope for appeal is very limited indeed. The things you mention - child attending nursery, difficulty of having children at two schools - don't have a bearing on admissions and won't win the appeal for you.

You need either to look for another school that both children can attend or formulate a plan for getting them to separate schools. Don't bank on winning the appeal.

Shershti - You're on the right track. You need to get to the bottom of why this is an ICS appeal if the PAN is 27 rather than 30. Do they somehow combine and mix classes to make groups of 30? (Seems unlikely). Or is the school doing what it shouldn't do and keeping back some places for late admissions/appeals? Besides, the PAN only applies to YR - the PAN for previous years has been and gone (although in most schools it stays the same from year to year) - Y1 and Y2 wouldn't now have a PAN.

If this is an ICS appeal then, again, the things you mention aren't going to be much help. Parents' working arrangements or a child's toiletting issues (unless they are part of a defined medical problem) aren't relevant to a school's admissions criteria. Your only chance - but it would be a very long shot - is to try to argue that, in all the circumstances, the decision to refuse a place was so unreasonable that it was perverse abd should be overturned.

If it isn't an ICS appeal then (as SchoolsNightmare has already said) you'll be arguing on the balance of disadvantage to your child and to the school.

If, on the other hand, they actually have a vacancy with no waiting list attached to it, they have to give it to you if you ask for it.

shershti · 27/04/2012 09:03

kilmuir - No I didn't read the schools admission policy, I hadn't even heard of the schools admission policy until my daughter wasn't accepted into the school, which is when I started to look into all of this. Also in our area we do have priority if the child has attended the nursery after children with SEN's, medical problems, and children in the catchment area.

Panelchair - Thankyou for your comments, I will ring school admissions when they open this morning and attempt to find out why this is an ICS appeal as I know the school do not combine classes.
I know that in Sept 2010 a parent with a son in my nephews class (they are now in class 1) went to appeal - and won - after stating that the reception class the year before had also exceeded the PAN of 27. This family lived a distance of 3 miles away from the school and we have been told as we live further than 0.4?? miles away (we are at a distance of 0.7?? miles) that we missed out on that score too. The other score being that my son left in the september that my daughter started nursery so for us the sibling rule didn't apply.
How would I go about refering to this family in an appeal? Would it be worth my while to do so in order to demonstrate that to not let my daughter in on the same grounds would be discriminatory? The school hold a gold award in equality and diversity and the schools policies and the early years framework all state that the transition from nursery through to the main school should be made to be as smooth as possible, which is one of the main reasons I sent both my son and my daughter to that particular nursery, but allowing the afore mentioned child of the family who appealed into the school and not my daughter seems somewhat unfair to me.
I can't put into words how much any help or advice is appreciated.

shershti · 27/04/2012 09:40

Panelchair - a quick update, just spoke to admissions and have now been told this is NOT an ICS appeal! Both myself and a FISH advisor have been informed via the telephone this week by 2 seperate admissions colleagues that this was an ICS appeal. Apparantly we were refused a place because the PAN for the school had been reached??? I am so confused right now, I know this will affect the way in which I appeal in terms of the points I raise, but what should I say - help! I am so angry, I have spent hours and hours online this week late into the night worrying about filling out this appeals form and now this. Just waiting for FISH to call me back, but would love to know your take on this as you were so helpful in your last reply. I sooo look forward to my glass of wine on Saturday night ;-)

prh47bridge · 27/04/2012 11:26

You will have been refused because the PAN for the school has been reached. That bit is correct. If they hadn't reached PAN they would have to admit your child. However, with a PAN of 27 it is very unlikely to be an ICS case.

If you have any evidence that a mistake was made you should still raise that as it makes for a strong appeal. However, I don't think you have so you will, as PanelChair says, need to argue about the disadvantage to your child in not attending this school. The toileting issue is stronger than your working arrangements. If you can produce any independent evidence of this issue it will help. You should also look for any features of the appeal school that are missing from the allocated school and which will be of particular benefit to your daughter. For example, if your daughter has a talent for music and the appeal school has more musical activities than the allocated school that is worth mentioning.

PanelChair · 28/04/2012 00:38

Shershti - That it isn't an ICS appeal is excellent news, because the threshold for winning the appeal is now much lower. At the appeal, you can mention that you were told the wrong thing by the LEA (repeatedly, it seems), to show that the LEA are a little bit useless, but, frankly, I wouldn't make a big deal of it. The sorts of mistakes that panels will home in on are those where the mistake has cost a child their place at the school and that isn't the situation here. The things that you need to focus on are:

  • The PAN of 27 has been reached but that is below the legal limit of 30 and you believe your child will suffer prejudice (ie disadvantage) if not admitted

  • Some classes currently have more than 27 children and so it is evident (you will argue) that your child could be admitted with no huge detriment to the school. The school (presumably) is coping with 29 in YR now. You could also look at figures for class sizes in recent years - if they show that class sizes are usually around the 28/29 level and have rarely been as low as 27, you could even argue that the PAN has been set artificially low - that might add to the view that there would be no real prejudice to the school in exceeding it again. (Get accurate figures for current and (if you want to go down this route) previous class numbers from the school or LEA - they have to provide all reasonable information to assist with the appeal.)

  • Outline all the reasons why your child needs a place at this school - if you have a letter from your GP or paediatrician mentioning the toileting problems and giving their professional opinion on the benefits of attending this school, so much the better.

  • If you mention your work arrangements, make that a minor thing - the major part of the discussion has to be about your child, not you.

PanelChair · 28/04/2012 00:44

PS Get confirmation in writing/email now that it isn't an ICS appeal.

PPS The more I think about it, the more I suspect that this is one of those schools which holds back empty places in case of successful appeals. I suspect there hasn't been a class as small as 27 in living memory, although any figures you obtain from the LEA may prove me wrong.

shershti · 28/04/2012 10:11

Panelchair - Thankyou so much once again for your reply. I had already sent an email requesting they confirm in writing asap that this isn't an ICS appeal. Would you mind checking over the main points I plan to bring up at appeal if I put them on here for you to look at sometime over the next couple of days? My hubby would like to pass on his thanks too, you are in fact worth your weight in gold ;-)

shershti · 28/04/2012 10:17

prh47bridge - Thankyou for your input too, I am looking at the features of both schools as you suggested pretty much as we speak. So glad I found this site, I'd have been in a right old panic otherwise :)

PanelChair · 28/04/2012 11:21

Shersti - I would be happy to. If you put your points here rather than in a PM, I am sure prh47bridge and Admission would also give their expert input. Three (or more) heads are always better than one!

shershti · 02/05/2012 00:42

PanelChair
prh47bridge and
Admission

Here's my appeal, I would really appreciate your feedback. Just one question though, do I have to write my reasons for wanting to appeal on the appeal form, or, after filling out my personal details and info about the school etc, can I enclose my appeal with it so I can then print it out and send all my evidence at the same time? I have had bad experiences with our local authority customer services before and want to prepare for the worst case scenario - it being lost! ;-)

We would like to appeal against the decision made against our daughter, , attending Primary School for the following reasons
? has attended the Nursery which is attached to the main school since September 2011. The foundation stage building houses the nursery classes and also the reception class for which has been refused a place for. We feel this is unfair as has always looked up to the older children in the school and has been very excited about starting full days in the reception class. Once a week the children in FS1 take part in a PE session which is usually held in the main school hall and has also used other facilities at the school and has become very familiar with the school environment. Had we known last summer what we know now, that attending the nursery does not necessarily mean a child will attend the main school, we would have thought long and hard about our decision to send * to the nursery as to take her away from all that has become so familiar to her, her friends, teachers, the familiar environment etc seems so unfair on many points.

? We would like to raise our concerns that has not been accepted into the school on the grounds that the school has set the PAN for the reception class at 27 and NOT at the legal limit of 30 children per qualified teacher. Our research has shown that it is illegal for a school or local authority to hold back any places for children who may require a place in the future. We are at present trying to establish how many children are on roll for the whole school and how many children the school can take when it is at full capacity. As regards the foundation stage unit being a separate building, we sincerely hope that hasn?t been turned down for a reception place because of any potential numbers of children starting in FS1 in September, as we feel she should be given priority due to the fact that has been attending the nursery for so long and that she is in the here and now and for to be turned away for a potential child sometime in the future surely wouldn?t be right?? The Foundation Stage Unit Admission Policy gives a breakdown of how the numbers of children are made up in the unit - if FS2 are undersubscribed these places may be filled with FS1 children but does not
state if the reverse is possible1a. We believe that in the reception class this current year there are actually 29 children and in Class 1 there are 28.

? When started the nursery, during the first few weeks did have the occasional accident relating to toileting. This stems from the fact that from being very young, since starting potty training, has always been intensely private. We know that if had to attend another school toileting would be an issue, and one that would cause a lot of upset for my daughter. Her problem is that until she feels she knows somebody well enough, no amount of prompting will encourage her to go to the toilet; she will continue to say she doesn?t need to ?go? until she literally wets herself. This has been a problem with other family members she doesn?t see so often and at her dance class on a Saturday morning. This hasn?t been so much of a problem whilst has been in FS1 due to the fact we always ensure that has been to the toilet before she leaves the house and she has not been there for more than 2 ½ hours at a time, but this will change when * starts full days in September.

? ** is the only school for our daughter for the following reasons:-
o The foundation unit has an excellent outdoor play area for the children to use at playtime with equipment to climb on and a slide etc which * doesn?t have at home and has come to look forward to using during term time. Over the past year has taken part in sponsored events, such as the sponsored workout, and raised money for resources such as this.
o also has an interest in gardening and likes to help out at home and also at her grandparents houses, not only has a Gardening club but also has a large pond area which teachers use to teach the children about wildlife which is of particular interest to , who has not forgotten that her older brother enjoyed attending this club in year 6 last year.
o After comparing the menu?s for both
* and the offered school, I am very concerned that will not eat the types of foods on their menu, and would be much more likely to use s salad bar which has options such as Tuna, salad and bread roll or chicken etc and the main meals do tend to be more ?? friendly in general.
o ** also uses a traffic light system in line with their marking policy to mark the children?s work. The offered school uses a more complex system which I feel is very complicated for children to understand and to use effectively.
o * also appears to be much more up to date in their use of computers and ICT. has had access to a mini ICT suite whilst at the nursery and this would continue if she were able to attend the reception class.
o would also gain a lot from as we know from our son attending the school that the children are taught very well about how to keep themselves safe in relation to the Highway Code etc. Children are taught how to be a safe pedestrian and further up the school cycling proficiency is taught. This was also brought up in the Ofsted1b report dated June 2008.
o has, for some time now, expressed an interest in music as her Grandmothers partner is in a band and she regularly watches them rehearse. offers much more in the way of learning to play an instrument and has more variety on offer than the offered school.
o Many of the extra-curricular activities offered at *** tend to include the younger children in the school as opposed to those which are older in comparison to the offered school.1

? The school has an excellent head teacher, Mr , he is well known throughout the school community for making a point of knowing the names of each and every child that attends the school and is always approachable and on hand most days in the school playground at the beginning and at the end of the school day, whatever the weather. We feel this is something which makes the school special and, and from a child?s point of view, Mr gains respect through his ability to interact with all of the children on their own level, even at such a young age * looks up to the school head, as he regularly visits the FS1 children and gives out rewards etc for good behaviour.

? ?s father was made redundant in June 2011 and has just returned to work with a new company. Since was born (actually since ?s older brother was born in 1999) I have always worked part time at weekends to enable our children to grow up with either their mother or their father caring for them. It is a personal choice of ours that we would like our children to be brought up by their own parents and by other members of the family when needed. Whilst ?s father was out of work, it became necessary for me to find full time work, which I did though this took some time with the current economic climate. Due to the fact that both myself and ?s father work full time, we would be relying on ?s Aunty (* ) to drop her off and pick her up from school almost every day. As both my niece (who is in the same nursery class as and has been accepted into the reception class) and my nephew (in class 2 in September) both attend , it would be impossible for Aunty to be in two places at the same time, and as there is no one else who could do the school runs for us, I would have to give up my job. I have approached my employer and requested a change to my hours, but as I knew before asking the question, this would be impossible for him to let me do so. As neither of us earn a large wage, this would cause us as a family to drop, once again below the Poverty Line, which would affect both of my children. has never had a holiday as yet, and both of us wish to set a good example by being working parents. Also, because of our current work situation, has had to come to terms with a huge change at home already with us both working full time, add to this the fact that she may not get into as well and you can begin to see the traumatic effect this will have on a 3 year old.

? From a social point of view, even outside of school / nursery, all of ?s peers attend XXXXXXXXX. We have been told that because we live further than 0.4 miles from the school (we are 0.7 miles away) that we have to appeal due to the distance as well as the schools PAN being met, but round the corner from us there are 6 children who all attend XXXXXXX who, however the distance is measured, cannot possibly be any closer than we are. knows the children of our friends and friends of the family etc in different classes the whole way through the school and can only benefit from this. ?s father, Uncle, brother, cousins etc all attended . Siblings count for something when applying for a school place and we feel that the fact that this has been a family school for generations should count for something too.

? We feel that our hopes and expectations for to continue her education from starting in FS1 right through until leaving primary school education in year 6 is not in any way unreasonable. In fact the schools Early Years Foundation Policy states that it aims to ?ensure a smooth transfer through FS1, FS2 and into Key Stage 1? and ?To provide a secure environment where all children feel safe and happy?3. This policy also states that ?The nursery aged children (FS1) start the term after their third birthday dependent on admission procedures, and continue in the unit until they reach the end of the Reception year (FS2)? It was after reading the schools literature on starting at the nursery which led us to believe that would in fact continue to attend the school once she had been granted permission to attend the nursery last year. We feel that should have to attend another school, the aims and objectives mentioned above within the Early Years Policy would not have been met. Likewise, *'s Vision Statement states that the school aims to ?provide a broad, balanced and relevant curriculum with continuity and progression, which met the needs of all pupils and is accessible to all pupils?. Again we feel this aim would not have been met if this appeal is not successful as the continuity and progression will cease to be available to our child.

? Should be able to attend , both myself and her father could then continue working, * would always have somebody there at school to watch her take part in activities such as school plays, special mentions assemblies, school disco?s, sports days, school fairs etc as her cousin is in the same class so her Aunty would be there anyway. Of course there are times one of us would be able to attend, but often there are times such as at Easter and Christmas in particular and at the end of a school term, when all the children?s activities come thick and fast and it is very hard when there is an activity almost every day after school throughout the week to attend every one in support of your child.

? We have found through our research that if a child?s parents obtain a place in a reception class by means of providing the admissions authority with a false address in order to do so, if this comes to light before the child?s first day at school then the offer of a place can be withdrawn, but if this is found to be the case on or after the first day of school, the decision will not be withdrawn so as not to unsettle the child. We feel this goes someway to prove that the law agrees that for to be taken away from the school she has attended for the best part of the past year would have a detrimental effect on her. The fact that (at the time of writing) is 2nd on the waiting list also adds weight to this.

? We found out on Friday 20th April that had not been offered a place at . During the week commencing 23rd April I spoke to the school admissions authority and was told that the appeal would be an ICS appeal. I then rang FISH and they also contacted the admissions authority and again, they were informed this was an ICS appeal. After a little research, I called them back on Friday 27th April and spoke to a an admissions guy to query this being an ICS appeal when the legal limit of 30 children per qualified teacher had not yet been met. At this point I was informed it was not in fact an ICS appeal. I have sent several emails and made several phone calls to the admissions team requesting information I deem necessary to put forward this appeal and, I feel that I should point out here that I haven?t found them, on the whole, to be either very forthcoming or helpful in any way to date, especially in regards to my queries as to how many children are currently attending the school.

WELL, THERE IT IS. SORRY IT'S A BIT LONG BUT I WANTED TO KNOW WHAT YOUR THOUGHTS WERE ON THE WHOLE OF MY APPEAL :-) . ANY COMMENTS FROM ANYONE ELSE ARE MUCH APPRECIATED TOO. I'M HAVING A REAL NIGHTMARE TRYING TO FIND OUT HOW MANY PUPILS ARE ON ROLL AT THE MOMENT. TIME IS RUNNING OUT TO GET MY APPEAL IN AND BOTH THE SCHOOL AND ADMISSIONS ARE FULL OF EXCUSES WHY THEY ARE UNABLE TO TELL ME THIS INFO, SUCH AS WE ARE UPGRADING OUR COMPUTER SYSTEM THIS WEEK, WE HAVE A BACKLOG OF ENQUIRIES TO DEAL WITH ETC ETC. GOSH, I FEEL DRAINED x

panelchair · 03/05/2012 00:42

I'm not sure it's a good thing to discuss the detail of your appeal statement on a public thread, but my initial reaction is

this is much too long

the strong point of your appeal - that the PAN is only 27, you have (unconfirmed) evidence that there have been classes of 28 and 29 and your child (you argue)could be admitted without breaching the ICS limit or causing prejudice - is lost within a lot of stuff which is far less relevant

you need to frame the appeal in terms of what your child needs. What your child likes (the play equipment, the lunch) or what you as a parent like (the headteacher's management style) is not going to cut any ice. (And be realistic - the menu could change next week, the headteacher could move to another school etc etc).

you need a short conclusion - something to say that for all these reasons, you think that this is the best (not the only) school for your child and that she will suffer prejudice if not admitted to the school

I've replied at more length to your PM.

Littlefish · 03/05/2012 12:46

It looks much too long to me. Take the 5 strongest points and include those only. Your points about the outdoor equipment, gardening and menus are particularly weak in my opinion and add absolutely nothing to your application.

Good luck.

PanelChair · 03/05/2012 12:51

I would disagree with you only about the gardening point, Littlefish. This is far closer to being a need and reason for prejudice than some of the more tenuous stuff.

StealthPolarBear · 03/05/2012 13:01

You have left a school name in.
Also, what's all the stuff about false addresses?
And why is your older dd baptised but younger not?

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