International Baccalaureate - is it failing to catch on?

[downtomylastcigarette]

My son is in year 11 in a state school, so has just gone through the choosing A levels process. Last year his school, with some fanfare, announced they would start to offer the International Baccalaureate if pupils were interested in taking it. This seemed an interesting idea to me - I had heard that the IBac is popular in independant schools and I can see some problems with A levels. However, my son decided that A levels was definitely the right path for him.

Now it turns out that so few pupils chose to do the IBac that they are not able to offer it. Are other schools finding the same thing?

I am a big fan of the IB.
Some schools only do the IB, e.g. Kings College Wimbledon.
A school in Kingston started the IB a couple of years ago, they have i think 50 - 60 places and i think filled them all, some were overseas students. I know this school did a great job of advertising their IB. Do you think your son's school maybe were a bit weak on advertising? Possibly there weren't enough students of the required standard, which is usually very high, to fill the course? Possibly the school need more time to train/employ the teachers? My understanding is that the whole process to be able to run the Ib takes 3 years?? Could be wrong..

Some of the independent schools have switched back from IB to A levels, or now offer it as an option, not the default post GCSE.

My two are in very academic independent schools and neither do IB, just A levels.

And I think the plan to revamp A levels in three years' time may change things further. They are going to get the universities to have more say in setting the curriculum, exams and marking.

I think doing the IB requires a lot of resources. This restricts maybe those schools that want to offer both as it is too expensive. Parents ask don't want to take the risk with a school just starting with the IB as teachers don't have the experience as some post on Mumsnet have shown. Plus DCs can mix and match with A levels and do less if they so wish but that is not possible with the IB, so it will always attract a smaller section of the school population.

I am ancient and did the IB in the 1980s at a school in UK so it always makes me smile when it is said that university admissions are getting used to it!

I think it's probably an advertising/ too much choice problem. You need a certain critical mass to run the full IB because of the subject permutations and if the school isn't proactive enough then you don't get it.

My experience is that Uni's love the IB and I am with goinggetstough Uni's are certainly not only just getting used to it!

We didnt have uptake for the IB in my school after the first round(independent). The word got around amongst the students that it was not worth it. The problem is there is no real advantage to the IB . Universities accept it but they also accept A levels in the same breath. So a lot of students decided it was better to do A levels.

Let me put it this way:
I am (or was) a clever chap at school. I got 4 grade A A levels when only a few students took 3 subjects and the majority did 2 A levels ( early 1970's). I also took something called an "S" level and passed those with distinction in 3 subjects - I didnt take the fourth.

If I were faced with the IB or A levels as options, even though I am a clever chap, I would reason as follows:

" I can get into the university of my choice on 3 ( or maybe 4) grade A . A levels. I am predicted that. I can make my choice of subjects from amongst those A levels which suit my ability and temprement. I dont have to take anything I may be weaker at.

If I choose the IB , it will be harder, I will have to take subjects I am not so comfortable with. I may have to work harder to get it. The universities of my choice will accept it but they6 wont be falling over themselves to offer me a place any more than they would with my 3 A grade A levels.
Therefore, what is the point of doing the additional study, working hard, possibly being Billy No Mates because I cant go out and do other things..... when I can breeze through my chosen A levels, not break a sweat, play foootie or rugby or cricket and still achieve my goals academically ( ie Oxbridge or whatver)"

Now I know many of our most able students have reckoned that way in my school, so the IB was dropped by them ( not the school or the staff).

..... Then a gain you could be a George. George was a lad I knew. Quite a bright lad who got talked into doing the IB instead of A levels. The school wanted to run the course and needed a cohort. He was offered a place at university on getting distinctions and merits in his IB. He got a merit instead of a distinction in one subject and away went his university place! Two years down the pan. Had he taken A levels he would have undoubtedly have gotten his place even on a lower grade pass, no sweat.

As jabed says, with the IB you have to do some subjects you are not so comfortable with/astonishingly good at. With A levels you can stick to the subjects you excel at. So for example if you are a stellar mathematician, you may not be that great at getting your lips round French vowels; and you may not like the feeling of only being mediocre at French. With A levels you can do maths, further maths, physics and chemistry - all very much up a mathmo's street. No need to chatter away in a forrin tongue.

Part of the problem is that IB wasn't designed to stand alone. Many schools offering it worldwide teach the Middle Years and Primary Years programmes which precede the level of what is generally offered in UK. These introduce the skills and range of subjects which comprise the IB qualification. Schools can't really take an either/or approach with A levels as to be of most effect it requires a cultural shift and specific teaching style. Unless the syllabus is embraced fully pupils will not be convinced of the change and tend to err on the side of caution given the choice.

Kings Wimbledon mentioned further down is now offering A levels as well as IB. If the OP's school were just thinking of offering it if they got a critical mass, no way were they prepared enough for it! I would not risk it until it had been properly bedded in and the teachers experienced - you cannot just dabble in it and expect good results.
We were offered a place at Kings Wimbledon for DS, and one of the factors that turned us off was the IB, as we figured along the lines of Jabed , and our DS is more of an A level boy than an an IB boy.

IB is great for people who want to go on to humanities, law, PPE and the like
but a tad rubbish if you want to go to med school or any other specialist degree

The IB strikes me as, as someone else said here, a part of a different educational ethos, not 'stand alone'. To me it seems it'd segue far better into an American style university where no one seems to specialise in anything in their 'freshman' year, all doors remain open. That's fine if that floats your boat but I suspect in these £9000 tuition-fee days, most DCs won't opt for a 'Liberal Arts' first year, they'll want to get stuck straight in (and I have heard it said a 1st year Russell Group uni student in the UK is working to the same level as a Y2/sophomore (is that right?!) in a similar US university as a result.

I like jabed's reasoning.

Back in the days of Nu Labour, they were offering financial incentives for state schools to start teaching the IB, that has been withdrawn. The IB programme takes a lot of teaching time and is expensive to run. At the time A levels had become something of a joke, all modules, retakes and a lot of A grades. Since the intoduction of the A* and the move towards a less modular syllabus, A levels do seem to be clawing back some respect.
It always surprises me in these discussions that the Cambridge pre-u is never mentioned. This was introduced a few years ago as the A level was seen as not fit for purpose by the top Indy schools and is still sat by many top schools, Eton, Westminster etc in fact I believe that it is only St Pauls which kept with A levels, and since retiring their former head has written articles about how ridiculously easy they are and that the whole A level system needs to be changed.
DS is heading for Kings and will now have the option of both systems, but he chose Kings before this was introduced because he loves the school. Kings do keep an exit list of Uni destinations on their website which gives Uni, course and the IB result. Its a good source of info for anyone thinking about sitting IB, because as you will see despite rumours about medicine 10 boys did go onto study medicine last year.

Students are wise to be cautious about doing IB at a school that is new to it - I've heard they often get terrible results to start with, so being the first cohort would be very risky. That said somebody has to be the first if new schools are to start offering it. I think it is far more suited to children who want to go on to do arts subjects as most science courses would prefer children have done a narrower more science focused set of options. Also have a lot of sympathy with anyone thinking along the lines of jabed.

It is harder, and doesn't count for any more, than A levels.

Please dont belittle the IB by saying it is only for Humanity students. My third DC is off to university this autumn to study Physics, he follows his siblings who study medicine and electrical engineering. They are all IB students and all attend(will attend) RG unis. The IB is hard work because of its breadth, but very appreciated by RG unis.
I believe the reason uptake is poor in the UK is because of the high cost of delivery and the fact that you either take the whole package of the IB or you dont. Therefore school and student must be committed. There are no resists, dropping a subject after AS level etc.
My two who are already at uni say their first year was a breeze due to the depth they went into at IB level.

Well to be fair, students say the first year of uni is a breeze after A levels as well....

I did it at a state school in the early 90s. I understand that they have now dropped it as it didn't really attract enough students. I was in their first intake, and only 5 of us entered the 2nd year - great for us! The best feature of it for me was the extended essay which I used as the basis of my university dissertation 2 years later.

I think the requirement to undertake CAS (a bit like DofE) put a few of my contemporaries off. it was quite a burden at times.

The IB paid off for me. I did 't get the grades required of me but my results came out before A Levels so I sorted my place out way before the A level students knew their destinations, but this was a few years ago now!

The extended essay is available to A-level students so that part of the IB isn't a main draw any more.

Sorry to bring this back up again but I recalled reading it a few weeks ago and it struck me when I was reading the local paper.

A word of warning on the IB for anyone thinking about it. It seems a local school near me is being sued by some of its students after they failed to get the necessary entry grades for university and they lost their places. If they had taken A level it seems they would have got those places as those who did A level did. They are claiming the school has used them as an experiment and they have suffered. That the teachers did not understand it correctly and that its been an all round poor performance.

I mention this because I know several other schools, independent and state who have run into problems. Clearly something to consider if your DC is considering this for September.