5 school terms per year?

[LittenTree]

bbc news

Bring it on, I say; but then, I'm just a parent dealing with at least 2 weeks of boredom and, increasingly, rain by the latter half of August; the tears and meltdowns associated with 9 odd week half terms and young DC, the catch-up needed most Septembers to bring them back up to where they left off 6 weeks ago....

schools I am not about to turn this into a private versus state discussion, honest: but I do believe that many traditional private schools educate differently. Like just about everyone, I have good friends in that sector and my observations have been:

The DCs are hand selected to be amenable to certain, narrow learning styles- I don't mean that in a bad way at all, I just mean the schools know it's more cost effective to 'exclude' via exam/test/observation DC who might need a wider or wildly different teaching style to learn stuff.

The DCs very often fall within a narrow pre-determined intelligence range, often an 'above average' one, so one size can fit all that bit more easily.

They very quickly learn exactly what is expected from them and get the hell on with their 1-2 hours 'prep' every night without a fuss as the school and their parents, as the bill payers, brook no nonsense. It is the way it is.

They favour shortish periods of intense pressure followed by longer periods off, and examine in a more pressured way: IGCSEs for example, actual sit-down exams at the end of every year, if not term; no modules or course-work.

Their holidays are often quite structured, not necessarily spent sitting in front of a telly. There'll be a tennis camp, a week at a PGL centre, a week away with the Fortescues at their darling cottage in Bordeaux, a week with the grandparents exploring the acre of garden, 2 weeks in a villa on an Greek island. Yes, yes, I generalise (!) but the point I am making is that many if not most private school going DC have been taught to handle long days, greater pressure and longer holidays than state school kids. They are taught to turn on and turn off as necessary.

Nottinghamshire has a different idea which is currently going through consultation - they want to fix the 2 week spring break - this I support.

litten you have described very well how the private system opperates from my own (small) experience.
The days are long and jam packed. The pace of work is fast. As well as lots of academic work there is always so much music, drama, sport. Lots of trips! It is a whirlwind.

We have ludicrous holidays! Four weeks at xmas and easter. Eight to nine in the Summer. One week at half term in Feb and June but two in October! Plus odd days hi9ther and thither.

Whenever I see the callandar I cannot believe how soon the next holiday is! And yet, the DC are always absurdly ready for it. Somehow, though it is counter intuitive, it works very very well.

I suppose one could make the case that it reflects how tertiary education and indeed the world of work often works. Very few jobs these days for a steady eddy. Or at least very few that pay somehting worth earning! .

One does wonder if this is brought in though, whether the gap between private and state will open wider. Most independent schools won't follow suit. There really will be a them and us.

I'm a teacher and I would actually be fine with this. Some half terms are 7 weeks at the moment, and whilst they do feel long, if there was a two week break at the end, rather than a one week break, it would make a huge difference. From my family's perspective, having two weeks off instead of one in say February or October would give us the flexibility with going away on holiday that we currently don't get- it's summer holidays or nothing really- particularly if we want to go abroad. Two concerns with it though- one: the whole country would have to do it at the same time, otherwise it just wouldn't work, and two: there might need to be flexibility with very young DCs- mine were green with tiredness by the end of their first term of full days when they were in yr R.

The whole 5-term-year thing isn't new though- it's been banging around for years. Every so often it comes up again and people get narky (or not) about it.

Thats right schools as I have said above I am one of the people who will have children in schools at different times (luckily I am a sahm). I know of a few people who work in city schools and have children in county schools.

We have a month off at Christmas and Easter, 8 weeks in the summer and two one week half terms a year the school gives the children work to do over the holidays to keep them up to speed.

Nottinghamshire are not planning to go ahead with 5 terms.

shootingstarz- you're obviously private. See above.

I do feel...'concerned'- about a tiny minority of parents I know in Bristol (I only know one set of 'affected' parents!) who have sent their DC to an ex-private school, now academy, whose DC now have 'private'-style holidays but state education, NC and all that entails. That might not end well, esp as they years roll by. OK initially as the school will be 1/5 'state', 4/5 private (but now non-fee paying!), next year, 2/5 state, 3/5 private etc.

But I digress!

In all of this discussion, I havent seen one thing that people think they will get out of an education scattered across this longer period - other than a veiled requirement for " free childcare". Do you really think there will be more learning taking place?

Over the years I have seen the age of leaving school rise from 14 - 16 ( and shortly 17 and 18, yet the amount of education children have actually been given has been less over that time. If anyone is to be believed then educational standards have also declined over that time. I think such viuews are probably correct assessing my own ( fairly poor ) education with that of my father and with that I saw in school for my DC.

The fact is, putting children in school longer and for more weks will do little to enhance their education. I doubt it would do much to enhance their educational experience either. Most kids want to play. I favour something completely different - send children to places where they can be productive - and WORK , do something for the economy , say from the age of 10. Maybe packing or cleaning. They can be sent out with teachers as over seers. The schools with longer terms and such become good practice grounds for that. Of course mums and dads will be oiut of work as kids will be cheaper to
"employ" in such a system.

Of course I wont put my own child in such a system. He is far too precious to me.;-P

As for summer schools, catch up schools and all the rest. I fear they are just another placation to parents who seem to think they work. I am about to go out and do such a course today and the rest of the week ( started yesterday). I can tell you now - its a waste of my time. Its a waste of the kids time BUT it looks good in the school for Senior management ...... the parents who requested it are happy...... there is nothing more the kids will learn from this thiough and it will not affect their results in June. Moreover, I am having to give up my holiday, the time with my DC to fo it. I wont be paid extra, so this is effectively your five week term in action. Personally I resent it.

Or better still, lets have a roll on roll off system. One that mirrors parents working patterns - where you can drop your DC off when you go to work - day or night and where they will be educated in shifts. You can book your 4 weeks holiday at anytime that suits your emplyer and yourself and fly off.

I know Bowles and Gintis argued that education was a reproduction system ( it worked to socialise children into the economic system) and of course the current system doesnt do that at all does it?

I would be fine with that, so long as I could get my holidays in the same fashion and I didnt have to do any work outside my shift. Right now I work, come home, mark and do preparation and run clubs and addicional activities in time outside the school day in exchange for the do nothing long holidays.

If teachers were just supervisors in rooms with lots of kids in them, that would be great - like all parents, I could then go home and forget work and spend time with my DC instead of being coouped up all hours working for school ( as I am now - about to go out and "teach")

And forget those highly paid teachers too - dont know where you get the idea. I earn £900 a month. for all of this. That a salary split intoi 12 equal parts. Nothing more for overtime as there is no "overtime" in my job.

Supervisiors ( sorry teachers) could come cheaper too as they wouldnt be paid for any great experise except keeping beloved happy all day just as most parents do in work - repetitive type jobs .......

I can live with that. Education 21st century . Computers should be able to deal with the learning side of your DC's needs. No need for hiumans there.

Ayn Rand - I never thought it would be right buut she got what she said she would.

We will see how this works out for us this year. Nottingham hae given the go ahead and my DSD lives in Nottingham. We usually have her half of all holidays but her mum has said it may have to increase as she has to work and can't take two weeks off every 6 weeks. I'm hoping some of them will mean DSd actually gets the same hols as us as we re in leicestershire and tend to have earlier breaks.

I thought this proposal (which I am glad to note on 'all or nothing' logistic grounds has vanished) still gave the same number of days in school? It's not more days scattered through the year. It's just a change to the norms of when the school holidays fall.

The new proposal was very similar to that in use in Australia. It causes no pedagogical issues whatsoever, and commands support. It's not a big deal.

Long holidays in the summer are great if your DCs have lots of super-duper activities, or safe places to just hang out. There are however far more whose hanging round is inner city, and the problems thus exacerbated can be serious (crime spikes growing week on week). I hope that the beneficial impact of rearranging dates to reduce one disproportionately long break on this group will not be overlooked; potential improvements for children in vulnerable/chaotic circumstances are important, and to me outweigh middle-class ideas of rose-tinted, sub-drenched holiday fun.

Yes, it would be the same amount of time spread across a longer period - in other words LESS for the kids to do daily in school. LESS intense - which means more bad behaviour as in fact the kids will still only be able to concentrate for the 20 mins in evey hour as the currently do. The best of the current system is that there is work for the kids to do.

Of course you could say, well teach them more ...... I say what? Many kids ( 80%) cannot absorb what they are taught now. They get bored doing the same over and over because they didnt get it first time and they still havent got it 20 times later ( no matter how many ways you try). So maybe we would be better off just sending them out to work? Oh I forgot, employers do not want they because they have not learned the one asset of employment - compliance. Doing as they are told.

As for not hanging around and being badly behaved out of school - they will just have more intense shifts of bad behaviour in those shorter breaks. So more vandelism the year through.

Then of course, kids play truant because they just dont want to be there.
Lets face it, most kids do not want to be in school - thats been the case for generations.

As for saying but my kids are happy in school and are ready to go...... well my mum thought that when she shoved me into childcare when I was a kid. I didnt complain. I didnt complain about school either because I knew she needed me to go! I have never said anything to this day You never know what your kids really think and feel. They do what you tell them and consider it " normal" - so its not questioned and you delude yourself (as indeed I probably do too). Its the lesser of evils rather than choices for many kids.

I know Nottingham is claiming this is new but in fact I know of a council who did this a few years back. It lasted one academic year because everyone from shop keepers to parents complained! It just didnt work.

Everyone thinks something is wonderful until its tried and then it aint. But as I said, what parents really seem to want is teacher childcare 24/7/ 365 to fit in with their lifestypes.

The roll on roll off method has been tried in FE I believe.

"potential improvements for children in vulnerable/chaotic circumstances are important, and to me outweigh middle-class ideas of rose-tinted, sub-drenched holiday fun."

So you're happy to fuck up my children's childhood to make the entire function of the education system the containment of the underclass?

Eh... fuck off.

This was the excuse for gutting the curriculum so children do fuck all apart from literacy and numeracy. It's about as effective as America's "all children left behind" policy - forcing children to spend most of the day on boring repetition rather than doing stuff they find interesting or might actually enjoy.

The English state education system is an utter fucking disgrace after years if ideological government interference.

Fix the stuff that's actually broken - no more SATs, no more requirements for constant documentation, training teachers to be creative educators and not box-ticking bureaucrats administering standard "schemes of work".

Forcing children to be on a never-ending treadmill of short holidays to ensure they retain the fuck all you manage to cram into their heads during term time in your gradgrindian, "learning objective" obsessed cramming system is just taking a crap system and making it worse.

At least they currently get one break a year to get the fuck away from it, even if it is one of the shortest summer breaks in the world.

Oh, and pro-tip: people who have been properly educated (not crammed full of temporary facts and skills) don't forget what they have learnt in 6 weeks.

My main point of comparison was the Australian state school system actually.

Could you link something which shows its term dates case it to underperformance, or that the attainment gap is greater.

Yes, I do think that state education needs to concern itself greatly with the chances the less fortunate. I realise that not everyone is concerned about wider society.

"Yes, I do think that state education needs to concern itself greatly with the chances the less fortunate."

No, it needs to concern itself with the chances of all its pupils.

"I realise that not everyone is concerned about wider society."

:o

You mean, like you?

Do want the focus to be on the "less fortunate" or "wider society"?

They are not the same thing.

Focusing an entire education system on the needs of the educationally disadvantaged will give you a narrowly-focused system based on low achievement and containment.

Children who are performing poorly at school because of educational disadvantage need to be given extra, targeted support.

Why should we base our holidays here on what they do in Australia? Best education in the world, is it? Can I have some links to prove that?

AThingInYOurLife,

Using that language will mess up your kids more than a shorter summer holiday!

Just look at the riots last year. A long hot summer holiday - more problems often arise in the heat - and the kids were mainly, though not exclusively, from estates and gangs. It won't mess up the middle class child's education and frankly I'm all for society helping those who need it most.if children are not getting the right example at home or in their community then a shorter holiday will mean they are less influenced by the negative things going on outside of school.

"Using that language will mess up your kids more than a shorter summer holiday!"

:o :o :o

A better example of the philistinism engendered by the English education system it would be hard to find.

Thank you :o

Yes, children must be protected from LANGUAGE! :o

If the riots were caused by school holidays, then maybe we need to ban holidays entirely!

And weekends!

Keep the little shites cooped up permanently :o

Don't pretend it's about what is best for the kids who rioted last year. They weren't bored, idiotic thugs. They were young people with an entirely clear-headed view of what this society offers them - sweet fuck all.

I woudl like to see 5 terms and no half terms. Not extra days and hours in total but more shorter terms where teacheers can cover a topic properly would be good.

I really suspect teacher unions are objecting because they are spoiling for a fight with Govt and teachers themselves regards the long summer holiday as a perk.

Yes, I realise I put it badly.

There are many aspects to consider. I was thinking of term dates as that was what this thread is about. And term dates don't only make a difference to what happens in school. The (cumulative) crime spikes do not receive much attention, because they are pretty localised in already deprived areas. And (cumulative) anti-social behaviour can be dealt with eg by ASBOs. So you can make the case that everything is fine, and perceived happiness of middle class children is therefore an argument which outweighs this. Maybe that's what Cameron will be measuring with his mooted happiness indices?

Or you could look at the interactions between school life, home life and life chances, and perhaps examples where it works well elsewhere. And consider that improving things for children in difficult and chaotic circumstances is indeed a route to improvements to every single sector in society.

Most of the parents I have spoken to are objecting because of the fact it is being done in isolation.

If introduced, I would like to see 'standard' national terms across the country with no deviations. It would be a nightmare if every LEA had slightly different terms.