Where are all the WHITE kids gone?????

[drosophila]

I live in a multicultural area in London where maybe 50% of the people are white. Our local school is mainly non-white. In DS's class there is about 5 white children and about 21 non-white children.

The school has a good rep and twice was in the OFSTED top 300 schools in the country. Why do you think it's not representative of the neighbourhood. The other schools around have very strict catchment areas so I don't know where they go to school.

Scummy, love your son's comment, fab!

This is an interesting thread. If we move we will be moving from a multicultural city and school, very mixed in ethnicity, to a country area which is slightly whiter I guess, although near enough to London to not be a monoculture. Obviously, but I will say it anyway, we're not moving for that reason and I have worked there long enough to note a fairly high Asian/Indian population (ds is half Indian). However, I wouldn't be happy moving to somewhere completely white, like Devon, where we lived for 2 years. My ex mil was STARED at when she came to visit, she was such a rarity. My ds looks an Italian/olive colour, although he has an Indian name too and surname, I wonder if he sort of doesn't apply when we talk about multiculturalism becuase he looks as if he could be European. He has one friend who is a black/white mix (don't know the ethnicity) and all the others are white but middle class, so I wonder if he's gone for friends on the basis of class rather than colour? It's a great shame if multi culturalism isn't working.

feel awkward posting on threads like this because i don't know enough about the issues to make what i feel is an intelligent contribution.
However I just want to tell you about my ds1's school. We live in a suburb of a very large, very multi-cultural city,in an area that is very mixed class wise.You have million pound houses 5 minute walk from a council estate etc. His school seems to be largely white, in his class of twenty two there is one mixed race girl, a bangladeshi girl for whom english is a second language, and a chinese boy.And all the kids just play together.The mixed race girl is one of the most popular kids in the class(-rightly so because she is delightful ,i love her)i have searched my brain to see if i can detect a class/race split but there just isn't .I am so surprised and saddened to hear some of the expereinces on here.

I don't really think that white parents taking there white kids to private schools is a race issue and I certainly wouldn't call it white flight.

IMO white families (parents) have the mind set that "private" education is best and so are more likely to send there children to schools out of the area to get what they feel is best for there child, where as other cultures do not place the importance of a good education with the schools, they install a mind set in the child that education is of the upmost importance and so because of this the school they go to makes no difference.

We need to remember that it is the parents that make all these decisions and if we just threw all the kids into the same school I am damn sure (apart from the odd few) that all the kids would get along just fine.

I don't know that being 'stared at' is necessarily a negative thing.
My bil (Korean,and it is pretty rare to see an Asian guy with a white woman) who lives in Brighton feels himself to be the object of scrutiny when he visits us in rural North Wales but it doesn't seem negative.
People are just genuinely surprised in the way that you would be if a rare bird landed in your garden.

MoM,I'm beginning to think that the only people who ever thought we could live together were white middle class Guardian readers.
Noone else seems to.
Witness 'Muslim Cartoon Furore' thread

I'm in SE London (East Dulwich) and while the schools I looked at are certainly multicultural, black and Asian pupils are not the majority as far as I can see.

I can see why you would conclude that moondog... but on the other hand there are examples of communities in which multiculturalism seems to thrive and do exactly what it is meant to do. I think the need is to identify what distinguishes those communities in which it works - eg the areas WWW, alexsmum and others are referring to - from those in which it plainly doesn't work at all, and tensions are rife, and unpleasant phenomena like "white flight", riots, racist attacks, gradual segregation etc are being noted. Perhaps it has to do with community infrastructures - co-operation between religious institutions, intelligent youth initiatives, skilful and insightful school management? Perhaps resentment and racial tensions are more easily engendered where poverty and deprivation are severe? I'm no expert, but I think there has to be more complexity to a debate like this. I think more needs to be done in terms of understanding what makes the difference between a community in which multiculturalism can be seen working perfectly to the enrichment of all who participate in it, and those communities in which bitterness and mutual mistrust have taken over. Multiculturalism means different things to different people.

Does anyone know what percentage of private school pupils are non white? I think that would be an interesting statistic (not drawing any conclusions about what it would prove, just wondering what the stats are!)

MOM..in a word,money makes the diiference.

It's certainly one theory But even that works on several levels. There's the "personal affluence" factor - less racial and cultural intolerance in middle-class affluent environments, partly because people are less likely to be perceived as encroaching on common resources such as jobs and school places. But arguably also because the traditional fabric of communities - people's awareness of and concern with the cultural habits of those around them - is more likely to be partially intact in a working-class area than a predominantly middle-class one.
There's also the question of public money and the resources devoted to community and municipal facilities though. If the schools/community centres/medical provisions/public leisure facilities etc are all impressively well-endowed and there is an ethos of cultural inclusion within those institutions - people are perhaps less likely to perceive themselves as jostling for position, or go looking for evidence that their "group" is being undervalued or under-represented.

Just ideas - but I think it's a fascinating debate.

True (my but you're eloquent today!)

WWW - I can only speak from my own experience - but most of the school we visited when looking at private schools for my DCs were about 50% white which closely mirrors (if not slightly underrepresents) the white population in this area.

I can think of many things which would influence my decision to send my child to a particular school and the percentage of various races there was never under consideration.

The school we chose has a Christian ethos, however it is multi-faith as well as multi-race. Everyone seems to get along just fine- no evidence whatsoever of children not mixing along either lines.

I think it is a shame that people of any race or religious persuasion ferries their children across town just to avoid mixing! Madness if you ask me!

I must say the last thing on my mind when looking for a school is the racial mix of the school.

That is because I went to international schools abroad (ok, my friends were predominantly rich kids with middle class or upper class parents with a high level of education, but my argument still holds) when I was school age and I can't think of anything better for my son than mixing with children from other countries and religions when he is growing up, just as I did. In fact I think making friends with other ethnic groups and religions is an importnat part of his education, just as it was for me.

If the school has a good reputationa and good exam reults, there is absolutely no way one could say that multiculturalism in that school isn't working. It must be working if the children get on well enough to enjoy themselves and to achieve good results.

The local authority primary school I have picked for my son has around 30% from a non-white English background. It is multi-faith and at least 10 different languages are spoken. I honestly would not send my son to a school that is 100% English, white and middleclass.

I would have found it very dull as a kid if I had been to a school like that as most of my friends up to the age of 27 when I finished my Masters were foreign. I want my son to have the same kind of education in a multi-cultural environment. I think he will become a very boring individual indeed if all his friends are white, English and middleclass and don't speak a single foreign language. That's my view any way based on my own experience.

Oh, and my view of multiculturalism is that "it takes two to tango". It makes me laugh when people who make absiolutely no attempt whatsover to get to know their foreign neighbours then say "oh, well, it doesn't work". It would work better if us the natives made more of an effort too.

I think I would be unwilling to send my children to a school where they were going to be in a small minority as English-speaking white children. I don't consider that to be the same proposition at all as sending them to a school with a good mixture and variety of backgrounds. I'm certainly not a racist, nor am I afraid of other cultures - I wouldn't prefer a school with 100% middle-class white children - but I would be concerned about the potential academic disadvantage to my children if they were in a school where only a tiny minority spoke English as a first language, and much as I value cultural diversity as a part of my children's education, I would like their own culture to be a substantial part of their education too. I don't think I would be comfortable for my son, for example, to be one of only five white English children in his school, any more than I would if he went to a school which contained no children who were not white and English.

Not read all the thread, but I read in the newspaper only last week that the white population is falling and are having far fewer children compared to some other races ( world wide). I think it said that the race that was increasing was africian. This may explain your question. larsxx

I've gone on at tedious length before about how I'm mixed race but look white. The Inferiorettes are the same (their father, like me, is half Asian). Interestingly, DD1 is going through many of the same confusions that I went through at her age - 'X says I can't be mixed-ray (sic) because I don't look it'; the difference, for her, is that I can say, with perfect truth, that Y and Z are both white and have black parents. It's fab

That's what you get when you live in a scruffy bit of SE London and send your kids to a local state primary

It's more than just a 'white flight' effect, though.

When we were looking at secondary schools for dd1 in the autumn we went to an open day at a super-high achieving London girls' grammar school, where there are 12 girls applying for every place.

I was really struck by the fact that about 80 percent of the girls there seemed to be of Indian origin (and I do mean Indian rather than Asian in general there weren't many headscarves around). The remaining 20 percent appeared to be roughly evenly divided between Chinese, white European, and Jewish. Very few black girls, one or two mixed race. And yet the school is not in an area with a big Asian population it's roughly in the middle of three localities, one an extremely affluent white area, a large Jewish community ranging from secular to very orthodox, and one pretty much standard London mix.

It was quite an strange experience, simply because the school was so unrepresentative of the area. Oddly enough, the school makes a big trumpet about the cultural diversity of the population, but it didn't seem that diverse to me. The school we eventually chose is not quite as high-achieving or selective, but has a mix much more like that of her primary school: white european, Mediterranean, Irish, West African, Caribbean, Vietnamese and South American, which seems to be the norm for Catholic schools in London. We didn't choose the school just for that, but it did influence our decision. The more mixed school just felt like somewhere that everybody would be able to find a niche, rather than feeling in such an overwhelming minority.

frogs - The fact that it is a grammar school means that only the very brightest children get in.

The Indian girls there would have been selected on the basis of how bright they are, not on their skin colour.

If a school chooses on the basis of ability, then it's fair enough that only the brightest get in, no matter what their ethnic origin.

Grammar school admission has a long history of being very questionable and subject to more subtle factors than simply which children are brighter. I find it most unlikely that the explanation for such a disproportionate intake is that indian children are simply much brighter/more likely to pass the 11-plus than children of other races.

It seems more likely to me that parents whose cultural backgrounds are very under-represented in the school frequently decide not to apply, because they do not want their children to be in a tiny minority. So more indian families apply; hence more indian children are accepted, and the school develops a tradition/reputation as a predominantly indian school. It's a self-perpetuating phenomenon. If we want to create a truly "multicultural" ideal, we need a proper debate about why segregation seems so often to be voluntary and instinctive.

Unfortunately it seems not everbody is so devoted to the success of multiculturalism that they are prepared to send their children to a school which has only a very few children of similar cultural background. It's one of the major obstacles in the way of a truly integrated society, I think.

frogs... the ethnic mix is what I liked so much about that certain CofE girls school we sat the girls for.

my ds is one of 3 white children in his class,2 mixed race,4 blck-the rest are all Asian and pretty strict Muslims.I am friendly with most parents,even have strange conversations with the mums who speak no/little English but i have to say this mix does not lead to any mixing out of school,party invites are ignored,and play dates are no-no.As far as i can see it's not a race thing but definately a religious thing.My child was badly bullied and racially abused for being white at the age of 6,it was hideous,he talked about being worthless and wanting to die-all because he was white and not a muslim.My friends little girl(black,in ds clss)was told categorically by her little friend (Asian,muslim)that her mum had told her not to play with her anymore as she was not Muslim...AAAArgh.I work for an Asian charity,so all my clients and collegues bar two of us are Asian and i have only encountered a problem twice with elderly asian men who didnt want me "on their case",i socialise with my asian muslim collegues,ask for advice and help as they do me and it so concerns me tht this next generation are growing up divided and fearing one another.Anyway,as to where have all the white kids gone,well,in my area they have all had parents devoting many hours to get them into one particular primary(which does not do as well asmine sats wise but is more mid class and white)or theyve gone private.

It's really sad isn't it when children as young as 6 comment negatively on race or religion. What is being said at home????

My DS who is 6 came home recently and anounced he was muslim. 'Why are you saying that?' I asked, 'cos I don't believe in God' he replied. I think he got a bit confused. Funnily enough he believes in Santa.

MOM, Some cultures (eg Asian/Indian & others) place great value on education as a means of improving oneself, indeed of proving oneself, within a predominantly white/other culture.

If you go to India, one of the first things you are asked is 'what does your father do?', 'what is your education?'

Which areas of the uK have this disproportionate intake? ( an going for dinner sorry for a short non-indepth comment)

Yes, nanneh, I wasn't disputing that the Indian girls were there on merit alone -- the selection tests are all marked by computer! I was just intrigued by the demographic that the school had ended up with, and the fact that it was so different from the local area.

I was surprised (and a bit sad) when ds moved from his predominatly afro-caribean nursery, where he was the only (very) white kid in the class (he stands out a mile in the class photos, snuggled up to the two lovely afro-caribean nursery teachers as he has my very pale skin) to his primary school, where seem very few (maybe six or eigth) non-white children in the class. There is only about 10mins drive between the nursery and the school, and we live in culturally mixed South London. The other thing I noticed is that the nursery was predominantly middle class, whereas the school is predominatly working class. ds doesn't care one way or another, but I would like him to feel at least fairly normal. I felt like I was the only kid at my primary catholic school who was not Irish, I spoke the wrong way, lived in the wrong place, had a mum who sent me to school in a kilt (she didn't like school uniform!) and basically did not fit in at all. I do feel scarred from the experience. Interestingly though, my middle sister, who was very sporty, made lots of friends and had no problems at all. So I think it depends on the child to some extent, but why stack the odds against your child making friends easily? I would always aim for a school that showed lots of evidence of diversity, and not just around culture.