Am I the only one thinking the system is crazy?

[chiaralev]

I've been living in the Uk for 18 years and I still can't believe the amount of time parents, including myself, spend researching schools, debating the pros and cons of state vs independent education. In other countries you just get on with it, and I promise the academic results are quite outstanding even though children may start reading and writing at the unbelievably old age of 6 or even 7. I'm also appalled by the fragmented society we are creating with religious schools (paid by us taxpayers, by the way) and mushrooming independent ones. So after much agonising, I decided that if my child gets a place at the local Primary, rated outstanding, I take her out of her hot-housing nursery she's attending and give her the chance to experience a fair and inclusive environment. Is anybody there that share my dilemmas and views?

Yes! Totally agree with you; we put too much pressure on too young. The combination of league tables and parental choice has resulted in social division and neurotic parents.

Lots of people don't spend ages discussing schools, it is a subset of the UK.
If I lived in the US I would make sure I lived in a relatively wealthy town, with a well funded school system. I probably wouldn't live in a big city. That is because local areas can raise taxes to better fund their schools.

But I think a certain type of parent in all countries will try to ensure their kids get every advantage.

I also believe that grade inflation, and the concern of vocal parents in the media (perhaps because they live in London) have heightened the concerns of parents.

of course. but when in rome, and all that.

my children have always attended school wherever we happen to be at. as army brats, there's no time to ponder. they are in, spend a year or two, then out and into the next place, in uk or overseas.

where we are living now there is one school. they can't go french immersion, and they aren't catholic, so it's a no brainer. no independent anywhere near us. too poor for boarding.

i went to the local primary, the local comp in the uk. there were no alternatives.

when i get really angsty, i like to read a bit of john holt or john taylor gatto, and contemplate homeschooling. we still might, at some point.

mummytime - that doesn't work in canada. to get into the fraser institute best schools, you have to head for the big cities. rural or town schools never ever score highly.

we don't live in a city, btw.

Some do, some don;t. Plenty of children DO go to the nearest school to home. If you live outside an urban area I suspect the majority go to the local school. Choice means nothing much when primary schools are 5 or more miles apart

I agree,my children have just gone to the local school. We have ignored Ofsteds, independents and grammars.

Both doing very well and happy.

Yep, wanting to make an informed choice about the place your children will spend a good proportion of their time. Bonkers.

I agree with mummytime MN gives a very false idea and perhaps is a London /large city phenomenon.
The majority of parents just want their child in the nearest school. We are over subscribed school and parents never visit before applying, none admit to looking at league tables or Ofsted reports, a few new to the area say they've spoken to other parents with children in the school ...

I live in France where most people don't think about schooling.

Howev, we live in an area where the local school (6 form entry at age 3) is in special measures (ZEP) and I can assure you that everyone in our local area spends an AWFUL lot of time trying to their children out of the local school. But our task is made a lot harder as there are no school websites, no published stats, no OFSTED inspections.

And there are a GREAT many failing schools in France.

I think your post is a bit naive.

Greythorn I don't know about France , but in Italy where we used to have excellent primary, the system was simple, just go to your local. Now I've been told you can select a preferred school, and this is done by word of mouth. But in Italy there is no baby boom so not difficult to find a place. High school was selected on the basis of personal interest. They don't turn you down. my Finnish friend also told me their system is straightforward and fair.

I agree although where I come from (not the UK) it is also a very common phenomenon in the "middle classes".

I hold up my hand and say that I am one who agonised and still agonise about the education my children receive. Yes I did send them to my local school but I find some aspects deeply unsatisfactory and find that I have to plug huge gaps at home, which does impact on my life and our family life so it does matter.

Without giving too much detail away, our school suffers from absenteism of one teacher which is highly disruptive, something I doubt would happen in the private sector, but maybe I am mistaken. Also another teacher is well known for a mainly DVD watching/sports focussed curriculum so basically for two years most parents have to tutor intensely for their children to keep up the basics.

The inequalities you speak about are not only the obvious catchment ones and private vs state, but also the ones within the state school - a school that allows 2 teachers not to teach and puts the onus on the parents to plug is effectively disadvantaging those children whose parents do not have the means, financial or otherwise to make up that hole.

I would love to relax in the knowledge that my children are just fine at the local school but that's not the case really. Funnily enough my friend back in my hometown has similar issues with their local school and that is a fair few thousand miles away from the UK!!

Thanks itsonlyyearfour , I agree with you, paying gives you Peace of mind. I'm still agonizing about my decision exactly for this reason. Will I have the time and strength in the evening to help my daughter with her school work and fill the gaps?

In the uk, people "teaching" in independent schools do not need to have QTS, i.e. be qualified teachers. Many are, but they don't have to be. So in this respect, if you feel that paying for private education whether tutors or independent schools, it's not necessarily "better".

it'sonlyyearfour - are you in the States? I remembering visiting a relative a few years ago and doing a tour of the apparently best schools in the area. We looked at lots, I am very interested in education so was keen to come.

These were elite schools, apparently. First off I couldn't get my head around the 'donation' system? Why did the school put pressure on the parents to raise around 500,000 pounds per year? Why did they then invite those who had been the most generous to join an exclusive club? The fees were exorbitant anyway! This 'club' had various tiers (depending on amount you could 'afford' to donate) with the names published for all to see.

The school I am particularly describing above we had high hopes about. Surely with all this money sloshing around it had to be a bastion of excellence? Let's just say I thought I'd walked into my primary school many moons ago. It was shabby and looked under-resourced. Children were lying on the floor to do their work and the teacher in stained track suit bottoms and football shirt straining at the seams was not who I had expected to be in charge of the classroom.

The children seemed to be about 2-3 years academically behind our state primary (I know it's a different system in the states.) This school went through to 18. Classrooms felt small and cramped and they'd obviously never heard of health and safety. I winced when I saw girls with loose hair down to their waists in the woodwork and metal work areas. The better schools seemed to be very laid back about the academics. The pervasive culture seemed to be if you have money, why bother? Become a pop star and if that fails Mum and Dad will bail you out. Everyone appeared to take sports very seriously indeed though. It's different depending on where you are in the States I'm told too but if you're experiencing something like that it'sonlyyear4 I can imagine why you feel as you do.

MrsShrek I think the elephant in the room on here is that private schools are usually better for all sorts of reasons not least the small class sizes. Sure there are bad private schools, but who in their right mind is going to pay for their child to attend a poor private school that isn't doing a good job? My husband isn't a qualified teacher but if someone as driven, educated and intelligent as him was teaching my son each day personally I'd be over the moon. We're at a state school by the way. Most of us can't afford to send our child privately so it makes us feel better if we look for the flaws. It's very difficult to plug the gaps and home and reinforce various areas of the curriculum and I have lots of angst that I am doing quite a poor job most of the time. I, like so many others here, do the best I can and hope for the best.

Some private schools are fabulous, but they are usually as well as being expensive also highly selective. Some are good, but also try to select their type of child, and don't pretend they can be all things to all children. Some say they are wonderful, but you have to wonder.
State schools have to take who they get, and if they follow the rules it can take sometime for them to get rid of even the most disruptive pupils.
The key whether state (or private) is to find the right school for your child. The alternative if you hate all UK schools is to move overseas or home educate.

The same is true for any country, although in some there is no option to home educate.

yanbu, I'm another long-time immigrant.
I think it's the scourge of our age:exultation of so-called "choice" which really just baffles us with impossible & often meaningless decisions. Not just in schools, but in stuff as simple as mobile phone packages. Everywhere is too much ruddy "choice".

We all just want a "good local school", no? With simple reliable credible qualifications at the end of the system? I don't want to ponder on the relative merits of Free schools, Academies, infant schools, league tables, Ofsted reports and gradings in 9 distinct areas, Value added results, junior schools, middle schools, comps, Grammar schools, Forest Schools, Beach schools, schools that are none of the above, different types of GCSEs & BTecs, etc.

In Scotland kids just go to their local school. It's a good system.

I think it was a previous Tory government that introduced all this shit, under the guise of 'parental choice'.

Whenever government talks about 'choice' you know it's code for making a public service really bad, cutting costs or privatization. I don't even like having to spend time deliberating between dozens of brands of cereal in the supermarket, I'd rather just have a good local hospital that looks after people properly and makes them better where possible than have to do loads of research and travel for miles in order to jump through the government's stupid hoops that they claim is about 'choice'. (Blair was also obsessed with choice but he was always trying to ape the Tories - although not to the extent of actually killing off the NHS as the present government is doing.)

Much better in the days when most people just went to their local school and you didn't have all this faff. And house prices weren't skewed by people trying to get into the nearest 'good' school - all schools had a mixed intake so you didn't have this divide between 'good' schools and bad.

OP, you are fortunate to have an outstanding local primary. In which case I would agree, mad not to use it.

But what if it didn't suit your child, for whatever reason, or were unsatisfactory?
Or the local secondary was poor and you wanted your dc to go somewhere else? Or your dc had special needs or abilities?

There can be lots of reasons for choosing different schools.

Just saying.

Our local primary is not rated outstanding but it it the local school that serves the community we are part of, the secondary is better although there is a grammar option which we never pursued. Sending my children to local schools does not mean I did not care. Dh and I both volunteer in the school. We are governors on the PTA etc. we support our children at home as do most parents.

I'm not implying that parents who use the local schools don't care, far from it. It's often, usually indeed, the best option and the dc has the huge advantage of local friends. I am completely with you on the importance of the local community and also the engaged parent.

Just saying that children come in different shapes and sizes and there are reasons why people make choices.

It was a poster above who said sarcastically said " how bonkers to make an informed choice"

By making a choice you deprive someone else of their choice. In a previous house my son had to travel past two schools to get to his nearest school because parents from other villages/towns had decided they quite fancied sending their child to our catchment school. My son had very few local friends, could not ride his nibble to school and missed out on the community feel because of the choices of others.

I don't get how that happened, Kat.

If it was his nearest school and you put it down first then surely you would be higher up the priority list than children who lived miles away.

Or was it a faith school for which you did not fulfil the faith requirements?

That would have sent me bonkers.

But we had to make difficult choices because Ds had specific needs that were causing complete misery in his local primary. I'd never contemplated anything else at that stage, tbh, so it was a shock to move him. And there were pros and cons.