At what stage, after school, does the school no longer have legal responsibility for the DCs?

[LittenTree]

Assuming primary school age.

Is it the minute they walk out of the gate?

When they get home?

Thanks

www.tes.co.uk/article.aspx?storycode=370916
is a start - what context?

It's as soon as they leave the grounds, obviously.

How could a school have responsibility for a child while they are walking home?

Have you had a problem OP?

what is the problem op?

at the point they have been released into the custody of the collecting adult for tinies, or at the point they leave the building or grounds for those with permission to walk home alone (usually from y3 a child is not released into the care of an adult, but is expected to alert staff if they are expecting to be collected and the adult is not there. the kids are all told they should go back into the school and inform staff in this instance.)

social services can be called if there is no answer on the parent's contact number or emergency numbers, and no-one turns up to collect children who are expecting to be collected.

so for a yrR - 2, at the moment they are handed over, and for yr 3-6, the moment they leave the building unless they return and inform the staff that they haven't been picked up and there is a problem.

why?

if an incident has occurred on the way home, and children are recogniseably in school uniform or attributable to a particular school (eg for antisocial behaviour, shoplifting, graffitti etc) the school do not have any responsibility, but will in practise often get involved because the child has tarnished the name of the school.

in the case of an accident or abduction or similar en route, the school would in no way be responsible.

The old in loc parentis laws? Ut doesnt just go back to 1989 as the article says, it has been there as long as I can recall even when I was a lad.

I was told back when I was in sixth form that in loco parentis applied until I was delivered into my parents arms - so on the way from school and to school. I was told that I was not free of this until I reached the age of majority - 18 now, 21 back then.

This is one reason universities dislike taking in youngsters under 18. They are effectively tied by in loco parentis.

If a teacher let me out early ( as they did then for a treat if a class had been good) I was still under their care until I got home and parents turned up.
Not well known that but I think it still applies.

Mm, so one person is saying 'in Y3'; another 18!

This isn't a big issue though it may become one, unfortunately.

Basically it boils down to a small group of Y6s playing kiss chase in the park after school (they've all been home first before heading out to play). My DS(2) now and then meets up with this crowd. He is socially and emotionally immature compared to some of the DC in the group (all classmates). There is no chance on god's sweet earth that it'd be my DS doing any kissing or chasing, though he'd watch, but they've been 'warned' by their class teacher that 'you've been reported to the council and they're watching you!'. That day, a dinner lady reported them all in school because 2 of the DC had apparently been 'kissing' under a picnic bench on the edge of the playground at school and the others had been standing around the table, presumably watching or encouraging.

He has no idea what he is alleged to have done wrong; they are a nice bunch of kids, they're out for 2 hours from 3.30 and go to 2 local parks on our vair naice, MC estate.

Now, at this point I'm supposed to say 'My DS ain't no angel but...' however, I won't because in fact he is pretty damn good! He's innocent and guileless, honest to a fault. He isn't a leader but nor is he a sheep-like follower. (Last summer he'd headed out with a gang and came home soon after because he thought they were getting too loud and boisterous, for instance). He likes heading out with his friends because they play at jumping ditches, BMX riding (on the BMX area) and 'man-hunt' and sometimes someone has some money so they go to the shop and return with their haul of Skittles to share.

Hardly sounds like a den of iniquity, does it?

My increasing irritation (and this comes on top of a string of whole class detentions etc) is that the school are now escalating my DSs apparent bad behaviour to the point where it warrants an 'outside authority's' attention (and bear in mind, my DS wouldn't know the difference in severity from 'the council' to 'the police'). IF he is spirally downhill so badly, why have I not been summonsed to the school? Why is he continuing to get straight 1's for 'tries his best all the time' in reports? Why are we told in parents evening he's very quiet and need to contribute more when in fact they appear to now believe he is a tearaway who needs 'warning'?

I have been shrugging my shoulders though with increasingly clenched teeth over the past few (Y6) months about the endless, petty punishments and mass tellings off the Y6 boys in particular seem to be getting (and from 2 teachers who happily stood before us at a post-residential trip assembly a week ago saying that these were the 'best Y6s they'd ever taken on this residential'...) but I feel they've crossed a line, here, and that I must, as a parent, weigh in to defend my DS and tell them to either come up with the evidence of his wrong doing or back off.

I am a staunch school and teacher supporter. In 9 years I have never 'marched' up to any school. This isn't pfb (though I might have believed more of the apparent transgression from him, DS1!), we are nearing the end of Y6 (thankfully) but I feel I am being 'forced' to act. Especially as DS doesn't know what they've actually done wrong, what rules they've broken.

WWYD?

Is it perhaps not that they are playing "Kiss chase" but that perhaps they are getting a bit above themsleves and causing problems. If there's a lot of small ones trying to use the park and there's some big year 6s charging around playing chase it can quickly get dangerous for the little ones.

If that's happening every day I can imagine some parents of younger ones getting irritated enough to contact the school, if it means the park is then not really usable for their child.

I always reckoned at parks etc. that boys about age 10 were the worst to be about when I had tinies because they hadn't the maturity to watch out and avoid little ones (particularly when playing chase) but could be so big they could knock a little one flying, particularly dangerous off park equipment when they could be high up.

Litten
if the kids have been home first and THEN gone out to play it is NOTHING to do with the school, they are most definitely under parental care.
Kiss chase FFS - yeah, both mine did it IN school!
A firm word with the head to point out that once children have gone home and come back out the door they are NOT her issue
all she has got the right to ask is that they change out of school uniform before being too lary.

Take a deep breath and think how many more days you have to put up with the school - that was the only way I survived the last 14 weeks of primary!

The kissing under a bench IN school playground- absolutely school can deal with and I hope would want to discourage inappropriate behaviour in 10 and 11 yr olds.

Behaviour in the park out of school hours- I'd like to think that other park users could tick off a bunch of kids behaving inappropriately or roughly. However many adults now won't tell a child other than their own off, BUT will "report it" to school or parish council or who ever in the hope that someone else will take those children to task. Assuming another park user won't know the children by name, all the Y6 boys get the "serious talk about behaviour" tho only 3 or 4 deserve it, but which 3 or 4 isn't known.

They may be a "great bunch of Y6's" and your DS may be a nice boy, but it sounds like SOME of teh group are causing trouble and until its pinpointed WHO those ones are teh whole lot of them will get tarred with same brush.

I live in a village and can think of which children it would be at our local school - not year 6, but another year, individually lots of very nice kids, but certain ones will go to far in the park and come very close to vandalism.

Thanks, yes, I am beginning to think I just Have To Breathe-e-e. It was my impression that 'after school' wasn't the school's concern.

I would be far more relaxed about this if there was any indication whatsoever regarding what, exactly, the DCs are supposed to have done. I am absolutely sure if it were knocking littlies over they would have been told precisely what aspect of their behaviour was amiss (though I might temper my agreement with the knowledge that the school did absolutely nothing about the out-of-control 4 and 5 year olds pelting hell for leather down the footpath outside school until they sent an elderly lady sprawling- and despite many reminders from other parents that perhaps the school needed to remind parents their 4 year olds were their responsibility- but maybe they're NOT?!).

FWIW the Y6 DCs in the park are finding they're having to make way for marauding gangs of Y8s!

the only reason the school would be involved is if they were all still wearing school uniform, or they were just trying to encourage the kids to tone it down in an attempt to foster good community relations.

the behaviour is nothing to do with school, and they are not responsible for it. they are just trying to get the kids to behave appropriately as they have had complaints from the public and don't want their school name to be tarnished.

what do you mean' they are escalating it to an outside authorities attention'? i thought you hadn't had any contact with the school?

to be honest, it probably should be dealt with by the local community policeman anyway - nothing to do with the school at all really. if kids are being a pita in the park, it would usually be the community bods that had a chat and asked them to tone it down anyway. he isn't going to get an asbo, he's just being asked to tone down anti-social behaviour.

but all that's happened is a random dinner lady has wagged her finger, really.

i suspect if you head into school, you'll look like a loon, and they will just say 'we had a complaint from a member of the public and we asked the boys to be more considerate and don't bring the school name into disrepute'. no mention of police or the council.

Litten
the other night, collecting DD from dancing there was a gang of year 7, a gang of year 9, a gan of year 11, and a couple of year 13 on motorbikes
all milling around in a menacing manner.

Luckily I recognised the biggest of the big ones from having helped him with maths when he was in year 4 - they all chillaxed and melted away!

Mad-

My DS's Y6 teacher took a group of boys and told them that 'you've been reported to the council and they're watching you!' regarding being in one of the many local parks out of school time. I'd say that was more than an 'inside school' dinner lady wagging her finger.

No, he won't get an asbo. what he will develop is a suspicion of the fairness of authority, and an increase in a completely new phenomenon I have witnessed in him: a 'What's the point?' attitude to going to school seeing as he feels they'll just 'get into trouble'. He has NO IDEA what exactly he and his mates have been doing that is causing so much grief. And, interestingly, the teacher didn't spell out what it was either. WHAT 'anti-social behaviour'??

I am not sure why a school would regard a parent as 'a loon' for asking them to provide the evidence that is condemning her son, tbh.

soooooo..... ok. he knows that hanging around in the park is likely to get him a bad name.

had missed it was his teacher. it does sound like a total storm in a teacup though. i would just tell him that if he is being antisocial, the community police are likely to visit you at home, after they've ticked them off in public once or twice.

y6 is a pretty good age to learn how to behave in public without getting 'reported' i think. no-one's condemning him for anything. his teacher has just read them all the riot act about being considerate of other people. i fail to see why you would be getting involved, tbh.

if he isn't mature enough to deal with the consequences of being on the fringes of a badly behaved group, (and i am assuming he uis, as he usually recognises when he is uncomfortable with how his peers are behaving) then he needs to come home after school and not hang out in the park with the ones who are ebing a pita.

to be frank - he needs to know that whether it is him, or someone else, if he is present then he is going to get dragged into the same amount of trouble as the ones misbehaving. fact of life, really. and we are just talking 'getting ticked off'. there's no actual lawlessness, just trivial anti-social kids playing about. it isn't really a big deal.

Sorry - I seem to be missing this as well as your DS :
What exactly is the complaint?

Is it loud noise or is it inappropriate sexualised behaviour in a public space? Is there some indecent exposure going on? Kiss and chase in public. My dad would have told me about it long before it reached this stage. Girls are very nice but there are some things you do not do ..... etc. (same goes for peeing behind a tree if cought short - a boy thing I am sure)

Aside of the in loco parentis, if the DC's are under 10, there are under the age of legal responsibility and no one can do a damn thing. Thats the law. Reach 11 and then there is something and DC could end up not with an ASBOO but a record for sexual assult and a lifetime on the sex offendes register.

Too many parents and too many teachers pussyfoot around what the law is and maybe thats why you DS has "no idea"?

Or am I still missing it?

Yup, jabed that's about it, IF it is those 'unacceptable' behaviours re sexualised behaviour, they need to have that spelled out, in particular! Of course they've all had 'the talk', being Y6 and yes, some of them (though I wouldn't have said the ones 'involved' in this thing) are quite 'developed'.

DS really doesn't know what the alleged problem is. I would, as I stated earlier, give a weary shrug about it all if the school weren't now implying to the DC that their behaviour is being monitored out side of school by an 'official' agency.

What behaviour?

We have decided to see what happens today (and see if DS can make any more sense out of it). I need to go and see his teacher anyway for parents evening v. soon.

You seem to be relying an awful lot on the account of your ds alone, for both the behaviour in the park and what has been said at school. Maybe some memerbes of the group overstepped the mark, and there have been complaints. If any were in uniform or otherwise identifiable the school would have been informed and be expected to deal with it. By all means ask for clarification of what has occurred but agree if your ds does not want to risk being involved by association he needs to find another group to play with or stay at home.

It was corroborated by my friend's son (who is rather more articulate than my own!). She is in a difficult position as she is a dinner lady (and witnessed the very end of the 'kissing under the picnic table' thing).

No, my ishoo is really that I know these DCs aren't getting up to anything they shouldn't. Plenty of parents who know them walk through the parks or are there with their younger DC. DS, as stated, is as honest as the day is long, he couldn't tell a lie as he doesn't have the wit to get away with it! And doesn't recognise when it might be in his interests to be 'economical' with the truth! Bear in mind this is a school that, in panic, banned the Y6's from playing football on the walled astroturf pitch when it was the Y6's turn to be on there because a Y2 who walked into the area got hit by a stray ball. The obvious action would have been to suggest to the Y2s that they needed to respect that it was the Y6's turn there and that they shouldn't have gone there (imagine if a Y6 had walked on during Y2 time!!), but no.

The pettiness of the school's alleged 'problems' with Y6 are getting frustrating, esp bearing in mind we were all told how marvellous this Y6 group was, 'the best ever', during their week's residential last month..... The parents I know are all saying 'roll on secondary' but I would quite have liked DS to be enjoying this time, like DS1 did 2 years ago, not feeling constantly under surveillance for unspecified 'bad behaviour'.

In theory schools have some responsiblity for children outside school, but this is pretty unenforible. For example if a teacher saw an eleven year old completely drunk in the park at the weekend they should report it as a child protection concern.

With trageties like Victoria Climbe or Baby Peter were caused by lots of people knowing something was seriously wrong but doing nothing. The aim is to protect children from harm rather than to police children's behaviour.

As far as I know, a teacher can disipline any child wearing school uniform, anywhere, however, there are very few circumstances in which they are likely to. If your son is wearing school uniform outside of school, then he isn't their responsibility as far as his saftey goes, but IS as far as enforcing the behavioural policy goes.

Legally it's the minute they step off school soil as long as they are not on an authorised trip.

However Every Child Matters policies mean that the school is encouraged to be mindful of a child's welfare beyond the gates as well.

In this case it sounds like kids being a bit lively and adults getting their panties in a bunch, but the answer from your point of view might be to do a bit of discreet spying on the kids whilst they are in the park and decide for yourself what is likely to be going on. This might prove quite revealing, or if they are playing nicely, you can point out that you have spied on them whilst they are playing and you haven't seen anything untoward.

BTW I thought it was compulsory to kiss people under school benches and play kiss chase at junior school. Isn't it?