"School policy" not to give out levels in Year 4 - why?

[teaandthorazine]

Have just got back from ds's Parents' Evening. Inspired by another thread on here, I asked his teacher directly what level she thought he was working at now. She told me she 'wasn't allowed' to say - she looked a bit sheepish and emphasised that it was school policy, not hers.

At the end of year 2 we were given KS1 levels in the end-of-year report. What is the point if we're then not allowed to discuss progress through those levels in later years?

I know that NC levels are not the be-all and end-all, but I really can't understand this squeamishness about giving parents this kind of information. What's the harm?

Are all schools like this? I felt as if I was some awful pushy parent demanding to be told how brilliant my child is, when all I want to know is how he's doing in terms of what's expected and how he's progressed. I rather thought that was the point of PE...

Or have I missed something?

Well, my Dc's school aren't keen but I do ask and both DD's teachers told me at P.E recently. But I'm a PITA . I wanted to know particularly for DD2's - who is in year 3 - because there is an area her older sibling struggles with and I suppose I wanted reassurance that DD2 isn't struggling also.

What the school does not do, however, and I don't get this one (and of course I asked) is give sub-levels at KS1 for level 3's. That's not a boast BTW, just stating a fact. If you do not know their starting levels going into year 3 then how can you judge progress a a parent, or at least quantify it?

Here are some suggestions.
Schools have a statutory obligation to report end of key stage levels ie end of year 2 & year 6. There is no legal requirement for them to report levels at any other time.

Some parents get outrageously competitive about the levels their children are achieving, in the way that some are obsessed about book bands in reception/year 1, so it becomes the talk of the playground.

I am very happy for my top English group in year 4 to know their levels; in fact they are motivated by knowing what progress they've made. However, my bottom maths set is a completely different issue. No matter how many times I say that our focus is on progress and how much they've improved, how demoralising would it be for a hard working child to hear they are, say, a 2a when their best friend who doesn't really have to try in maths is already a 4a?

A less able (or later to develop) child may well have still made significant progress, but for them that is moving up a sub-level as opposed to the 2 or 3 sub-levels that some children achieve in a year.

Children's progress is not linear - they tend to spurt and then plateau. This means it will often look like a child made loads of progress with last year's teacher and then very little this year. No matter how much I explain that's normal child development, a certain group of parents will start spreading it round the playground that I'm a crap teacher. Especially when they reach the end of the plateau and then spurt again next year.

Sometimes a child can be just into a sub level ie 3b and then 6 months later be a very secure 3b, just not quite a 3a. They've actually made almost 2 sub levels of progress, but it looks like they've made no progress.

Even with APP, assessments, careful marking of classroom work, observations of children etc etc etc, leveling is by its very nature subjective. I tend to mark my English group quite harshly because I know they can take it and it will do them good in the long run. Another teacher using the same evidence might be more generous.

We are in a system where the effectiveness of teachers is judged by the progress their children make. In my school there is no effective moderation of the levels awarded to children (that's a whole other debate...) so weaker teachers are known to be generous in the levels they award children so it looks like they've made good progress. That makes it incredibly difficult for the teacher the following year to show any progress at all, even though they know the child has progressed. Even when the management style doesn't encourage this sort of practise, some teachers (less experienced, those who've made a big change of year group) will find it harder to level accurately than others (done 10 years in the same year group and know in their sleep what a 3b looks like). This can lead to the same problem. Add to that the recent Government proposals that teachers' salaries will be determined by the levels their children achieved....

I'm not saying any of this to defend a system where parents aren't told the level their children are at. However, if a school has had bad experiences in the past (especially how parents use the information), I'm not surprised they've made a decision to not give out levels.

As I said above, at parents' evening I gave out the levels and targets for my English group but not my maths group. Any parent who asks me is told the level their child is working at. However, does knowing a child's level actually tell you very much? The teacher should be telling you about their strengths, and above all what they have to master yet. It's all about next steps in learning - it is good practise that children know what they need to work on next. Ofsted are actively asking children what their targets are. Obviously parents should know the targets as well (in some form).

I would like to point out here that I do not blab about my childrens' levels in the playground or Facebook or whatever; I want to know, and feel that I have a right to know, in the same way that if my child was learning an instrument or ballet I would want the teacher/s to keep me up to date. I agree with you that some parents may abuse the knowledge, but the vast majority just like something concrete to go on, and with my eldest I was more naive and didn't understand "Teacher-speak" in the way that I now do and because of certain problems with her I just want to know that DD2 is on track.

I think it should be mandatory.

As parents we have no other way of knowing how much progress our dc have made and knowing how much progress our kids have made is an entitlement.

I don't give a stuff if schools can't sort themselves out and level consistently,my answer to that is get it sorted it's your problem not ours.

If schools don't give out levels when asked and don't show hard evidence of progress in all areas when asked what is the next step?

" If you do not know their starting levels going into year 3 then how can you judge progress a a parent, or at least quantify it? "

You can't anyway. Sublevels are bollocks. And as Icecream says above, progress isn't linear so you would be getting all het up about your child not making an exact sub level progress over an exact increment of time whereas that is entirely to be expected. Levels are designed to measure progress between key stages, not over a couple of months.

This obsession with minutely detailing levels for every piece of work is taking valuable teaching time away from doing actually useful things.

I've had the "playground comparisons" excuse given to me too when asking for my children's test results, and frankly I find this attitude rather patronising. None of the parents I know engage in this kind of one-upmanship, and even if they did, it's unfair to tar everyone with the same brush. It's true not everyone is familiar with the way the National Curriculum system works, but those that are and do take an active interest in facts and figures relating to their child's education should be given the information without being made to feel like it's covered by the Official Secrets Act. A parents' evening would be the perfect opportunity to explain that a child might be at the very edge of one level and on course to progress into the next stage in the next term or academic year. We had this very thing explained to us this evening by an experienced teacher, and we were left feeling happy that our daughter was progressing at an appropriate rate for her ability.

A few other points:

• under the Data Protection Act, parents are legally entitled to all data held by a school about their child.

• we are constantly being told that as parents we are partners in our children's education, and indeed most schools have a system of "home school partnership agreements" to be signed by the school, the parents and the child. Such agreements are undermined by an unwillingness by the school to share information with parents.

• in areas where selective education is the norm or available as an option, NC levels are often used to assess suitability for putting the child forward for an entrance exam, and/or the information may also be used in school admission appeals where, for example, a child may not have performed as expected on the day of the test.

• once children go to secondary school parents are confronted by a relative explosion of information, with their children tracked to within an inch of their lives on every subject, covering not only NC levels but also predicted levels, whether they are likely to meet those predictions, how well they engage in the subject and whether their homework is completed and handed in on time!

Just to answer the "are all schools like this" question ... the answer is no. We get detailed reports, with levels and sub-levels for reading, writing, maths and science, twice a year. I've always found it helpful, but can see some of the points toomuchicecream makes.

No.
My kids have been at 2 schools.

School 1: In KS1 children and parents don't know levels until after Y2 SATS.
In KS2 children know their levels and when they go up. Parents have to ask grades.

School 2: In KS1 and KS2 we get predicted end of year grade at first Parents Evening. KS2 children know exactly what point they are working on the APP grid. Both KS1 and KS2 teachers happy to disclose grades.