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Education

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Original poster

Why do we say "failed" the 11+, when we don't know the pass mark &.....

19 replies

Milliways · 30/01/2006 20:07

there are only 100 places with 500 entrants?

We are waiting results (due 1st March) and see more MN kids taking exams more recently, and Mums saying their DS/DD failed

Do some areas have a pass mark, and all those who pass get a grammar place? Round here there are 2 schools (1 boys, 1 girls), both have 100 places and NO catchment so entants come from > 3 counties!

If DS doesn't get in, I won't be saying he failed, just that he didn't make the top 100.

What do you say?

OP posts:

Piffle · 30/01/2006 20:09

Here (Lincs) it is a fail there is a cut off mark.

Original poster

Milliways · 30/01/2006 20:12

But what happens if more people pass than places available?

OP posts:

JoolsToo · 30/01/2006 20:14

funny isn't it when the vast majority of folk are agin selective education how there are more applications than places [rolls eyes]

Fail is an emotive word used by adults.

Instead of saying 'fail' why not say 'you are going the school that best suits your talents'?

Blandmum · 30/01/2006 20:16

To be cynical, I doubt that the school a child who 'fails' the 11 + will often not be the best school for their tallents because not enough money is spent on it.

This was a large part of the probelm with the old 11 plus system. Far more money was spent of the kids who 'passed' than those who failed.

And the curriculum 'fails' the children, not the other wa round IMHO

Original poster

Milliways · 30/01/2006 20:16

I will Jools!

DD "failed" years ago & confounded her teachers. She Aced her SATS & some that "passed" got 3 4's! However, she is extremely happy at the top of all her classes at the Comp - so no regrets, but DS has his heart set on the grammar!

OP posts:

JoolsToo · 30/01/2006 20:20

well Milliways that's half the battle so good luck to him!

martian - I watched 'Rock School' last night - don't know if you've seen it? anyway my main point is the attitude of the kids there!

I don't really think I can articulate the absolute jaw dropping comments that are coming from 15 year olds - it was never like that in my day (and I don't mean that as a joke).

"I'm not having a teacher talk to me like that!"

oh really?! FGS - what's going on in our schools today?

Original poster

Milliways · 30/01/2006 20:21

I was gobsmacked that Parents had booked a holiday in term, time for a Yr11

OP posts:

bluebear · 30/01/2006 20:25

My friend's ds has just found out that he has 'passed' - they are in Kent. They were told the pass mark was 500 and something out of 600.

Both myself and my younger db were told that we had passed all those years ago - but neither of us got places at either of the grammer schools - at the time the grammars only took 1 child from each primary that was more than 3 miles from the school (something to do with free travel i seem to remember). I was happy enough but my db was devestated as he had thought he'd be following our elder bruv to the grammar - it really messed up his secondary schooling.
I think 'not making the top 100' is a much better way of explaining it to your ds.

JoolsToo · 30/01/2006 20:29

You saw it Milliways? aren't they foul mouthed?

the school seemed to allow the holiday too?

Original poster

Milliways · 30/01/2006 20:31

Yes Jools - didn't notice the quieter girls until they played the keyboard. Bet they get swamped in all lessons. we moved house to avoid a school like that - at least DD's comp was rated overall Outstanding in last years OFSTED

OP posts:

Blandmum · 30/01/2006 20:33

Joolstoo,
trust me, they know their, 'rights' nowerdays. No resposibilities mind you!

My pate was told to 'piss off' by one little charmer today. I had a boy on Friday who wouldn't sit down and ran out of the lesson. All psrt of a normal day.

Blandmum · 30/01/2006 20:34

Milliways I have had parents book exams in year 1 when the kids had modular exams....and ten have the nerve to complain that the kid didn't get a C grade at GCSE.

One of my A level students missed a lesson last term to see a gig and asked me to give up my lunch break to tutor him. I told him no.

JoolsToo · 30/01/2006 20:37

so when did it all change? - how did it all change?

I'm horrified by the lack of respect these days.

something on the local news last week I think it was - 2 pupils got treated to a day in a pop stars limo and a shop at the Trafford Centre for ....................... wait for it .......................

good attendance! WTF!

Freckle · 30/01/2006 20:38

I believe there is a certain cut off mark below which you will not pass. However, each child is then measured against all others who take it that year so that only the top 100 are chosen.

I agree that to say fail is quite emotive, but the child has failed to achieve the required mark. There are many areas in life where we achieve and where we fail. We have to learn at some point that it is possible to fail.

Original poster

Milliways · 30/01/2006 20:43

Freackle - I quite agree, if the Mark wasn't met then child should know. Happens with other stuff like swimmimg badges as well

It's just that here we will be told the Mark & the ranking (imagine being 499/500!), and if not in top 100 then no place. They don't actually say what was pass mark (but then no point if 300 pass!)

OP posts:

Blandmum · 30/01/2006 20:43

part of the probelm is a general lack of respect in society. Part of it is schools lacking any realistic form of saction that affects the kids in some way. Part is that parents don't back up school or dicipline their kids. Crap food. Falling expectations.

And dare I say it, a culture where failure is a forbidden word. I had a chat with my sic=xth form and they werehorrified that a student teacher failed her PGCE and had been dropped from the course. They had never come across this concept....you can 'pass' a GCSE with a G grade. It doens't get you much in the real world nmind you.

We don't get these kids readt for the real world, which has some real rules and sanctions.

I have lost count of the stroppy, rude and nastly boys who tell me they want to join the Army. At this I LMAO and tell them that if they act up 10% as much as they do in school an Army sargent will have them running round a firld all day with a rucksack of bricks on their back!

Piffle · 30/01/2006 21:15

Well here it comes down to school selection, all made BEFORe the 11+ marks are known.
Plenty of kids who would and do pass the 11+ here prefer to go to the co ed comprehensive, there is a boys grammar and girls grammar as well, all schools are excellent.
You are told that if you put a grammar down as your first choice and pass the 11+ you WILL get your place.
There is a flip side which is if you put the good comp down as your 2nd choice then fail the 11+ you will NOT get in to the comp as it is over subscribed. This means you then go to one of two outlying schools one of which is the 6th worst performing school in the entire country.
So many parents played it safe, opting for comp for first choice, then reapplying to the grammar after passing the 11+. in doing this you have to give up your place at the comp... If you do not get in on reapplying you're screwed.
This year it was a disaster, as tons of kids who had put the comp down as 1st choice, the reapplied to the grammar, it then came down to the highest pass marks, and usual selection criteria like how close you lived and siblings at the school etc.
Many kids missed out.
Pretty crap system if your child is on the borderline of passing...

JoolsToo · 30/01/2006 21:18

bring back National Service

4blue1pink · 30/01/2006 21:31

My poor daughter took three exams for school in october - then waited till end of november to find out if she had passed...she had ( phew) her 5 friends who took it with her all failed ( not so good esp. not for them) and we have to wait till mid march to find out if she is in! Too much for a child of her age i think and feel bad for having her go through it!

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