Latin: why?

[Bonsoir]

Latin was my most important subject at school. I did years and years of it and have never felt it was anything more than a waste of time.

I know not everyone feels this way and I would be grateful if you could share your opinions as to the useful skills Latin develops in school pupils.

Forget the law thing - our systems were changed to get rid of Latin terms in the mid '90s. No use whatsoever for a career in law.

Like you Bonsoir I'm far from convinced about the language thing.

I'm touched by Claraschu's post but suspect in most schools the issue would be highjacked by parents who saw it as a status symbol.

If I was forced to teach it, I would go Claraschu's way and say "here is a window to the past" - of seeing philosophical ideas that we live by now expressed for the first time ('cept then it should probably be Greek).

And bonsoir it does not suprise me at all that you studied Latin!

Consider yourself lucky. I spent a large portion of my schooling learning Irish and Latin - thats time wasted on 2 dead languages. I am pretty proficient in languages though so maybe this helped.

I would of loved to have been taught latin in school.

You mean a law student won't know what an obiter dictum is, won't know what a guardian ad litem is, won't understand what habeas corpus means? I find that hard to believe.

Of course Latin is not essentlal for a career in law. But if you study law it's fun to have shortcuts.

Oh, the old Irish dead language chestnut.

Compulsory Latin, Irish, Welsh and Gaelic for all, I say.

Might make us all a bit more interesting; we'd certainly have a better grasp of our own history(ies).

Trust me its dead. I am living in Paris now so at least I'm not inflicting that drudge on my children.

Am all for Irish, once its not compulsary and outside school hours

It's just so satisfying to be part of the minuscule minority that appreciates and uses the subjunctive.

This is Mrs Baldwin's Latin O-Level speaking:

Latin: useful for making you look a bit posh, if you aren't.

But if you're already posh, maybe learn Chinese instead.

All together now ...

'Broken by war and rejected by the fates, the leaders of the Greeks, with so many years now slipping by, built a horse, as huge as a mountain, by the divine skill of Minerva ... '

Name that translation, still stuck in my head 25 years later.

It helps if you want to be a Latin teacher. (That's what I tell dd3).

As someone else said below, can we please ensure that Latin doesn't become yet another thing that is the preserve of the posh boys.

And I say that having a posh boy of my own.

it's good for your brain innit? i loved loved loved latin, did A level andthought about doing it at university. both dss are studying gcse latin and greek and love it too. it's not just the language learning aspect, it's a window into a whole different (ancient) world and culture. being able to read the aeneid in the original for example is amazing. for both my dcs it seems to link in with maths and analytical skills, thinking about problem solving in a creative way. long live latin.
op presumably your dc dont have to study it for years and years if they dont choose to?

"You mean a law student won't know what an obiter dictum is, won't know what a guardian ad litem is, won't understand what habeas corpus means? I find that hard to believe."

No, I don't mean that at all.

Dh switches to Latin with his Italian colleagues when his Italian fails him. It works, or so he tells me!

Actually, my mother did once have a fairly detailed conversation in Latin with a Greek Orthodox priest who showed her around his church on Crete. Each of them had a working knowledge of two or three modern languages, but Latin was the only language they had in common. I'd almost forgotten about that.

I have a distinct memory of my DH arriving in Italy saying "I am just going to speak Latin with a French accent and they will have to understand!" (It didn't work).
I feel as if there is a part of my brain that was only awakened through studying Latin. I am sorry that my DCs are unlikely to have this experience.
And another student and advocate of Old Norse here, although I have never made it to Iceland to try it out!

I did Latin for 5 years at school and loved it: it was my best subject after English (I was in Italy).
Not only is learning the language itself a great intellectual exercise, it is also a very good basis for understanding grammatical structures in other languages. I have found Latin grammar very useful for learning German and Spanish grammar (less so for French and English because I already spoke those well when I started Latin). It also helped my Italian prose become more elegant and concise.
As others have said, the vocabulary is very useful for the etymology of many MFL and essential for medicine and law. At university, the students without a good grounding in Latin found some of the early law exams much harder.
Then there is the cultural enrichment of studying Roman literature in the original; to this day some of my favourite poems are those by Catullus and Propertius. The musicality of Virgil and the beauty of his composition don't really come through on translation.
Studying oratory and the great speeches in the original is something I loved at the time, found very useful for university and (student) politics and still gives me pleasure today ( I whiled away some endless breastfeeding sessions with DS by re-reading the Catilinariae).
So, I am a definite supporter, but a good teacher is fundamental. The ones I had in the first two years just plodded along and almost managed to turn the entire class off through their pedestrian approach. The person who took over for the last three years on the other hand was a true classicist and transmitted his passion to a class of scientists.

Sorry, telephone got rid of my paragraphs.

Greta: nobody is saying that a law student without Latin won't learn what obiter dicta are etc but they will at least avoid howlers (such as I have seen in a briefing by a major law firm this week) that are more easily avoided if you understand not just the meaning but also the part of speech you are using. The offending item, by the way, was "with scienter" rather than "scienter".
In the courses I took though, many explanations began with "the concept of x in Italian law comes from y in Roman law", followed by a paragraph or two in Latin, followed by a long discussion on the differences between the two concepts. Much easier if you can read and memorise the salient parts of the bit in Latin.

Sui - not what I said either.

I'd said Latin was useful for shortcuts when studying law, though not essential. Someone else had said that wasn't the case because all the Latin terms had been got rid of in the 90s, and I responded that I found it hard to believe Latin terms had been eradicated and that law students wouldn't come across them - obiter dictum and whatever else I put were just examples.

I agree with the howlers thing as well, from bitter experience of marking.

I was like Bonsoir, Latin was one of my main subjects at school for many many years. I have mixed feelings about its usefulness.

I think "Classics" in general is a culturally useful subject as it is part and parcel of our Western civilisation and in many ways its foundation (philosophically, legally, etc). I would certainly be keen that all my children studied Classics. As far as mastering Latin, well I don't think it is that useful. A good understanding of the Classics and some sayings/words would be just as useful, and to be honest despite many many years of studying LAtin at school (and Ancient Greek) I can't claim I remember much of it.

Bonsoir, I do suspect Latin looks quite impressive on an 18 year old's CV, but a qualification in something analytical like music theory or philosophy would perhaps tick the same box?

I'm much more sympathetic to the idea of studying great thinkers in the original language. I take your point Bonsoir about MFL but wonder whether it is perhaps a bit easier to study 18th or 19th century French or German thinkers in their original language once you have studied Greek and Roman writers? Just because the French and German thinkers expected their readers to be steeped in the classics? On the other hand, that's a huge chunk of a child's education devoted to something very specialised.....

The legal thing is a complete red herring . Legal clients care about:

1. you spelling their name and company name right
2. you doing what you said you would do when you said you would do it.

A quarter of lawyers do neither and three quarters can't manage both consistently.

It's fine to mention that something was obiter. That term has passed into the English language. You don't need to study Latin for that. You don't need to study either law or Latin to know what habeus corpus is.

Most other terms have been abolished. "Ex-Parte" is now known as "Without Notice", "Inter-Partes" is now called "With Notice", "In Camera" is now referred to as "In Private". There was never any need to use those phrases in a different case anyway though - you just memorised them as you went along, it wasn't hard.

I also did years & years of it, starting in Primary & for years I too thought it was a complete waste of time

It wasn't - as an adult, I've travelled a lot & realised that my grounding in Latin has meant that wherever I went, I have found picking up languages very very easy.

I have also in the past shocked friends when visiting old monuments/churches together - despite thinking bar counting to 10, I couldn't remember ANY Latin - I could easily make sense of what was written on tombs etc - I thought it was because it was just easy as there was links to modern English & that we could all read it - turned out no-one else could but me.

So I now think it was brilliant & I just wish DDs school did it

Some links for those who think Latin and Classics are the province of the independent sector in the UK

irisproject.org.uk Don't be fooled by Boris' mug on the front page, this is a project started by academics in Oxford and London to introduce children in urban primary schools to the world of the classics

www.minimus-etc.co.uk The Minimus Project, a fantastic cultural and linguistic introduction to Latin in the context of the Roman colonies at Vindolanda and in York. Readily available to state schools with grants to pay for the books and training for the teachers/volunteers

Latin is fun when it is taught well and backed with accessible, well-designed resources. In my part of London it's taught in the majority of the selective state schools and being offered as a club in others.

It should not be a substitute for the proper teaching of English grammar but it really helps reinforce and corroborate what children learn elsewhere about sentence and word structure.

Minimus draws children in to the world of MFL by focusing quite extensively on Latin's relationship to French, Spanish, Italian and Romanian, as well as English.

I teach it because children enjoy it, and because Roman Britain and Greek/Roman Mythology are both on the Primary National Curriculum.

Marina - oooooooh! where do I sign up to the ancient theatre bit!

So would they perform a play in the original language for instance? That would be just awesome.