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Original poster

Setting/Streaming & Timetabling in Secondary School

17 replies

louisea · 03/03/2012 22:30

This is really bothering me and I can't do anything about it.

Which subjects do your schools stream and are other subjects connected to the streamed subjects? In our school the kids are streamed in Maths, Science and English but other subjects are linked. For instance, if a child is in top set for English then they are in the same group for another subject, i.e History. Science is linked to something else and Maths to other subjects. MFL are linked to music etc.

This bothers me because it means that if a child is in a disruptive group for one subject chances are that any other classes linked to that subject are going to be disrupted as well.

DC1 recently moved from top set English to the middle group where he feels more comfortable but that means that he has moved from a history group which he enjoyed to a history group that learns almost nothing. This just doesn't seem to be a logical system. Both boys are in bottom set for one of their MFL so they don't enjoy their music lessons because the class is often in turmoil whereas the other classes linked to the top sets actually settle down and do something in their lessons.

I'm curious how it works in your schools because in their previous school they were only streamed for Maths, Science and English. Everything else was taught in their form groups, mixed ability. My boys are suffering because of this system. There are days that they complain that they aren't learning anything and they want to learn.

I've been told that it is easier for the school to timetable this way but I don't understand why that is. All classes have to be in those subjects at the same time if they are streamed so why can't they just teach two classes in their form groups at the same time?

OP posts:

stressheaderic · 03/03/2012 22:35

It is the same in the school where I teach.
It is incredibly frustrating as there is not a lot of scope for movement between sets as an incentive (or disincentive) as it would involve too much disruption, whereas before, each separate subject could tweak the sets term by term as appropriate.
I teach MFL and we are set with RE, Music,ICT and Humanities which makes no sense at all, as languages is very much a 'you've either got it or you haven't' subject and has little to do with the subjects mentioned above.

The answer is it is easier logistically, cheaper, and more convenient to set in this way, using the electronic timetabling programme we bought into. Crap for the kids though (and subject staff, who are increasingly frustrated by the loss of autonomy in their subject).

mummytime · 03/03/2012 22:37

It's the same for another school in this town it's part of the reason I wanted my kids to go to a different school.

Fink · 03/03/2012 22:42

I've taught in a few schools, all with different systems. Some have streamed, others have set by subject or something in between as you describe.

I'd say the most common I've come across is to set for English, Maths, Science and MFL in KS3 and 4, have mixed-ability for the other subjects in KS3 and for it to be dependent on uptake in KS4.

By far my least favourite to teach is streamed, it is out of date pedagogy and lazy timetabling. Linked setting as you describe I don't mind (but then I teach a subject which is always set anyway) but if it doesn't work for your sons then say something.

Tinuviel · 03/03/2012 22:46

We set separately for Maths, English, Science, MFL, Humanities (geog/hist/RE), PE, music/drama/art, technology subjects. Some subjects have mixed ability (technology does). Am not sure what ICT fits in with, but they definitely set because I had a bottom set year 9 recently on a cover lesson (last lesson on a Friday!)

TheFallenMadonna · 03/03/2012 22:47

It is about timetabling. I teach Science, and we used to be blocked with Maths. So when half the groups in the half timetable (!!) were doing Science, the others were doing Maths. And so we had to work with Maths sets in Science

Mind you, now we have a completely different system that's even worse...

Original poster

louisea · 03/03/2012 23:01

Thanks. I don't mind the streaming for Maths, Science, English and MFL but to link other subjects to those is very demoralising for my kids. Through no fault of their own (not having learnt the language before), they are in the bottom set for one of their MFLs and are suffering in at least 2 other subjects because of that. I have thought about saying something to the school but I'm having other problems at the moment and will probably end up digging a hole for myself with the school if I rock the boat.

I still don't see how it is easier to timetable this way. If three classes are broken in to sets requiring 3 teachers then why not just keep those 3 classes in their form groups and teach them all History at the same time. 3 classes on the same timetable and the other 2 classes in the year group on a different timetable.

DC who has moved English which required the move for history as well has told me that his new history group is required to write less on their history tests than his previous group which was linked to top set English. This is teaching the kids to put in less effort across the board in my eyes. Not a good skill for adulthood.

OP posts:

TheFallenMadonna · 03/03/2012 23:05

Because you have to think of all the other year groups and their requirements as well.

Much as I moan aboout timetables, I would never want to be a timetabler. You please no-one!

Original poster

louisea · 03/03/2012 23:11

Still doesn't answer the question. 3 groups, 3 teachers. Why does it mean that they have to be streamed and not in form groups?

OP posts:

TheFallenMadonna · 03/03/2012 23:18

Without seeing the timetable, I can't really say.

If three groups of students are all in English at the same time, and the same three groups are all in History at the same time, then I would have thought they could have been set differently.

But I suspect that if you have to change history sets when you change English sets, that is not the case.

Original poster

louisea · 03/03/2012 23:23

When he moved English the two subjects stayed in the same place on the timetable. He wasn't issued with a new timetable. So the whole half of the year group is in those subjects at the same time which is why I don't understand why he had to change both groups at the same time.

I'm considering asking the head of KS3 to move him back to his previous history group but expect to be met with a flat "no".

OP posts:

TheFallenMadonna · 03/03/2012 23:25

Hmm. Well, I'd ask why then. Maybe ask the history teacher what she/he thinks?

I get annoyed when students are moved in and out of my sets because of other subjects!

Warlock · 03/03/2012 23:30

Hard to know without knowing the whole picture, staffing etc. I timetabled for several years and there are all sorts of possible arrangements. Did another pupil switch with your DC to equalise group sizes ??

Original poster

louisea · 03/03/2012 23:30

Thanks for trying to help. I think it is time to talk to the school again. I think I'm probably getting, if I don't already have, a reputation as a helicopter parent.

OP posts:

RaspberryLemonPavlova · 03/03/2012 23:35

My Dc are in an 8 form entry school, split into 2 halves for timetabling for Y7 and Y8. Over the first 2 years they are gradually put in sets for different subjects (Maths, English, Science, French, Humanities, D & T). The only linked subjects are Humanities. Music, RE, Drama and PD are in form groups. Art and IT have mixed ability groupings and PE also has set groupings. DC still complain about behaviour in form classes though.

Y9, they go into whole of year sets for the 3 core subjects. I'm not sure but I think History and Geography now set separately. KS4 is all sets (exept PD) and depends on your options.

If a school this size can do it, I would have thought most schools can.

Original poster

louisea · 03/03/2012 23:42

Did another pupil switch with your DC to equalise group sizes ??

No one else moved. Just seems crazy to knock back a kid who enjoys one subject just because they moved in another.

OP posts:

Warlock · 03/03/2012 23:58

Timetabling gets easier as the size of the school increases because you have greater flexibility with more staff.

schoolchauffeur · 04/03/2012 08:41

At DS school he is in sets for Maths and MFL and Science and you can move up and down these sets with no effect on rest of your timetable. He is streamed for English - and he does the rest the Humanities, arts, music with this stream. The reason for this is I suspect that with subjects like Maths, MFL and Science he has 4 or more lessons a week in those so there are a lot of each of these types of teacher ( I think there are 6 maths teachers), whereas he only has 2 lessons of history and 1dounble of art and 1 of music . If pupils only have 1 lesson a week ( except higher up school and taking music for GCSE etc) of a subject and there are 4 sets, I don't think many schools will have 4 music teachers full stop, let alone 4 music teachers all free at the same time.
I would be more concerned about sorting out the discipline in the group which is spoiling it for your son.

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