Shocked... Michael Gove does something I agree with!

[pointythings]

link here

I disagree with homework in primary. I think homework in secondary should be well thought out and targeted - I certainly never did anything close to the existing guidelines even when working towards the equivalent of A-levels and I got good results and a good degree.

I also think in-school supported homework clubs are likely to be far more effective for children who are not going to get the support at home (and the ones who do get the support at home are likely to do well regardless of whether they hav a ton of homework or not).

So almost 2 years in and something the idiot Gove does makes sense...

Still not going to forgive him for the English Baccalaureate and Academies/Free Schools, though.

One wonders how this fits in with the new Ofsted framework under 'Quality of teaching':
............ the extent to which teachers enable pupils to develop the skills to learn for themselves, where appropriate, including setting appropriate homework to develop their understanding.

Will there now be an amendment... 'except in primary schools'? I hope so!

Mm. My ishoo with homework is the utter inconsistency and patchy nature of it, the 'setting of it for setting its sake'.

It is instructive that those DC who go to private schools get used to the idea of a given, set amount of h/w every night from an early age, consistently given, returned marked and commented upon. Everyone knows where they stand (including the parent who gets a valuable insight into what. exactly, the DC is learning at what level they're performing at). Thus the heavy duty study of Y9 + doesn't faze them at all.

What we state school parents can get is, for example,, out of a potential 15 pieces a week (20 mins each, inc 'Dance and Drama type h/ws) in Y7, 3 or 4 a week? Maybe? So each bit of h/w engenders the same battle to Get Stuck In Now and Get It Done (FGS!!). There's no consistency, and in some schools no consequences for non compliance. Each new piece of h/w starts the same battle.

Why can't a Y3 be set a short page of maths one night, 10 spellings another, thinking up a good topic for a story the third, a short project looking at what 100mls, 500mls and 1 litre of water look like in a jug the 4th? The howling DC in the supermarket comes as a result of some level of mis-management, either by the school or the parent (or, maybe the DC who fibbed about it all being already completed). That scenario shouldn't lead to a knee jerk 'Ban All Homework because it stresses the little darlings!' I mean, in primary, it need only be 20 minutes a night. If a DC gets home at 3.30 and goes to bed at 8, that still leaves over 4 hours a night for 'family time, food, bath and maybe even 'an activity'.

When I was at school in the dark ages,
KS1 - reading/none (can't actually remember getting any but there may have been reading
KS2 - spellings/tables
KS3/4 - homework every night; quantity varied

I don't remember struggling to do hwk at secondary - it was part of the leap and something to be looked forward to!

I teach secondary and lots of kids have just had enough of doing hwk by the time they get to us. It wasn't like that when I started teaching back in the 1990s!

Some DC get home from primary school at 3.30, some get home at 7pm after being being picked up from childcare at 6.30...

I'm not convinced children need to be trained to do homework from an early age. DD went to a state primary where the homework was minimal (nothing on weeknights, maybe one piece to be done over the weekend, though in Y5 & Y6 they did get some extended projects to be done over Xmas & Easter holidays). She seemed to cope fine with multiple homeworks per night in Y7, at least as well as kids who'd been doing proper homeworks since KS1.

Back in the dark ages I went to a private school where we didn't get homework at all until we were 10 or 11 (i.e. an age where could be trusted to organise it ourselves and take it seriously - and for the first year it wasn't much more than spellings or quite simple exercises). Possibly the thinking back then was that the school was being paid to teach us during school time, otherwise, what was the point of paying for it...

The funny thing was, I couldn't wait to be old enough to be given proper homeworks , and I coped fine with the amount required for O & A levels.

Anyway, Gove isn't scrapping homework, just scrapping the guidelines - so schools will still be free to set loads of homework, they could even set more if they want to.

I take a very extreme view on this. I do not believe that there is any point in homework at all. I certainly disagree with it at primary level. Children should be allowed to be children.

Further, it is a waste of time, those children who most often do the work are the ones who least need it. Those who do not do it might ( mightwith a good following wind!) benefit from it. At least that is my experience.

There may be some merit in homework for pupils taking GCSE and A level
(probably the latter). I have always maintained that I have enough lessons in a week and enough weeks in a year to teach my pupils for their examinations without homework and I deem it a failure on my part if I have to start asking them to come into school for additional classes, ask them to do homework ( beyond the revision for exams) or do crammer sessions.
In order to fulfil the "requirements" set by school and govt I have a standard homework I set at all times - and the pupils know this.

If pupils ask me I will do such sessions for them but they hardly necessary except they boost pupil confidence (maybe).

When a lad myself I had no homework in primary school and 20 mins max per subject per week in senior school. That was more than necessary.

I do not like the hidden curriculum supported by homework ethos - that children shall learn that they have to work over and above the time they are in their workplace ( in their case school) and do it unpaid. That is not acceptable in my book. A man (or woman) is worthy of his (her) hire. Business coasts too much on goodwill and for free from its staff - especially at such times as recession. It comes to expect it. Its abuse when it is done to children.

Exactly Tinuviel - I didn't get homework until I started secondary. We were eased into it over the first term and it was easy - and we did feel 'grown up'.

I also think times have changed and so schools need to change their thinking about homework. It is no longer the case that there will always be a parent around to pick up the child from school, because the majority of people work. People no longer have as many spare hours at the end of the school day, and homework policies will just have to accommodate this.

That works far better if homework is introduced at secondary level, where children are old enough (and should be independent enough) to do their homework with minimalnagging support.

I am also at the idea of actually marking homework - this did not happen at my secondary in Holland except for things like essays and projects. Routine homework (French/German grammar and vocabulary, maths tasks, biology and geography questions) were all gone through in class at the beginning of each lesson. As a child, you knew that you could be called upon at any time to produce an answer to a set piece of work. If you got the answer right, you got a good mark (which counted towards your final report, everything did!), if you got it wrong the teacher would use the error as a teaching opportunity. Homework was there to support your learning and it was up to you, as a mature secondary student, to take up that learning or not. We'd have tests every 3 weeks or so on a topic or part of a topic (the mark of which would also count towards the total). If you'd done your homework, those tests would be straightforward.

Result: greatly reduced teacher workload, responsibility for learning placed firmly on the students - as it should be in secondary. The UK system is bonkers.

I quite agree. I'd go further and say "homework" is all but useless for any age.
Littentree my 9 year old goes to a very academic independent school and has no homework at all! And that's the way it ought to be as she has an awfully long day and Saturday school and we, as parents, support her learning outside of school without the need for then to set worksheets or whatever.
When she goes to an independent senior school at 11, she's start getting used to 'private study', not just in the evening, but throughout the day too. This will set her up for life (well University first I hope) and is much more useful than setting pedantically timed pieces of set work to achieve and then have marked.

I hate primary school homework - the kids get far FAR more benefit from having time to play, and do 'other' things - they've had 6 hours of school, where is the benefit in doing 100 sums, 20 phonic sounds and 10 spellings each week, plus reading every night which is what my 5 yo in Y1 gets.

When left to play, my kids play fantastic games, with loads of imagination, creativity, and they learn from this.

Not to mention that the level of parental support varies so much that the teacher can't glean any sort of knowledge about how the child is doing, and in some cases the parents just do it for them.

I strongly believe that homework is unjustifiable for the reason I quote below. I'm constantly talking to people and reading forum posts etc which show that there is a large minority or even a majority that feel the same, but no one seems to want to rock the school boat. We need to change peoples consciousness so that homework becomes as anti-social as smoking is these days. Somehow those of us who feel this strongly need to urgently start speaking collectively, write to mps, high profile people, schools, headteachers etc and start making our voice heard. Each year we have gone into school and reminded them that homework is not compulsory, home school agreements do not legally have to be signed and that while I will support my child if they wish to do set homework, I do not expect them to face punishment if it is not done. I urge everyone who feels like this to do similar. In addition, there is an e-petition at epetitions.direct.gov.uk/petitions/17055 which I urge you to sign - At the very least it may eventually indicate how many people feel this way.

Homework Issues

I feel strongly about the setting of homework in schools. I'm aware that this issue is contentious, so I've indicated just a few reasons why I believe so strongly that homework is wrong, to indicate that this isn't just a knee jerk reaction. It appears that I am not the only one - Teachers appear to be concerned, as indeed do many parents who do not push the point, as they are scared to push against the status quo.

Sends the wrong message re: Work/Life balance

• Most are concerned that this country prioritises work above all other aspects of life - Work/life balance misadjustment is costing us in both money and quality of life.
• Yet right from the age of 5, we are telling our children that not only is it acceptable to take work home, it is mandatory. It removes the segregation between work and pleasure
• It makes many feel guilty about not taking work home, and perpetuates the spiral of work taking full precedence over personal and family life.

Disruption of Family and Personal Time

• It dictates how we should spend our time with our children and as a family
• It reduces the spontaneity of spending time as a family.
• It reduces the time available for children to pursue those interests that they want to discover.
• It reduces time to learn for themselves outside of a pre-determined curriculum, and for us as a family to determine a learning agenda.
• It leads to stress, fear and unhappiness if homework either wasn't done or couldn't be
• That unhappiness leads to friction within families
• Can lead to sleep deprivation, either due to actually doing homework or worrying about it.
• Can reduce the activity levels of children, preventing them from more active activities when doing homework.
• Increases stress levels in children
• Result in drained, tired children - everyone needs time to refresh themselves - That time is the time that they are not at school or work.

Dissuades Children from Learning for fun

• A 2006 Scholastic/Yankelovich study found that reading for pleasure is a better indicator of test scores than homework, but that reading for pleasure decreases sharply after the age of eight. The study found that the largest reason for this was due to homework.

Rude, Inconsiderate and impolite

• I consider the presumption that a school can take up my family?s time outside of the hours prescribed to it as plain rudeness.
• I think it unlikely that the school would take kindly to my setting my children things to do during lessons.
• Yet that is exactly what homework does to time outside of school. If a school believes that it can determine what my family does in its own time, then why shouldn't I specify what my children do for a period of time in each lesson? Because, as I would agree, it would be impolite and inconsiderate!

Most studies show limited or no use in primary schools and only some use in secondary

• 2006 Synthesis of research - Found no correlation between homework and achievement in Primary, limited in Secondary (but only up to a period of 1 hour)
• US Cross Cultural analysis found that low-homework setting countries such as Japan, consistently achieve better than higher homework setting countries such as UK and US.
• Some schools are eliminating homework completely (e.g. Nottingham East Academy). Tiffin School - "Something's not right when a boy can't watch a nature documentary because he's busy doing maths".
• School provides a standardised place for formal learning - Home does not - Home life can be noisy, distracting, unsettling etc.
• Often homework is given because "parents expect it". As Peter Stanford from the Independent says "Teachers set homework in the belief that it pleases parents. Parents don't disabuse them of this, even when it is exhausting their child, because they don't want him or her to be singled out or seen as failing."

--- Richard Rowe, head of Holy Trinity School at Guildford, Surrey, said he would happily vote to abolish homework but had been unable to persuade parents."I genuinely think that if children of primary age are taught well and do a good day's work, there should be no need for homework," he said. "They should be allowed to have a childhood." (Times educational Supplement 14/3/2008) ----Margaret Morrissey, of the National Confederation for Parent Teacher Associations, said: "Schools need to explain to parents that they want their pupils to be fresh and excited in class. "Younger children go to school quite early and, if their parents work, don't get home till 6pm. To have homework on top of that just risks burnout." (Times educational Supplement 14/3/2008)

• Even teachers and their union dispute the use of homework - . Professor Dylan Wiliam of the Institute of Education in London, "Research shows homework does not make much of a difference"

--- ATL (Association of Teachers and Lecturers) in 2008 called for an outright ban on primary school homework saying that it was "counter-productive" (+ strict limits on secondary school homework).

But since schools were free not to follow guidelines already, I can't see this is such a big deal. My y6 dd gets spellings, a 'maths challenge' sometimes and a 'learning journal' type homework ('find out about evaporation' etc) in a week - definitely doesn't spend half an hour a night as per guidelines.

There are so many posts on MN saying that independent schools offer a superior education because they have more homework so I wouldn't necessarily say this was a great move.

I didn't have any homework at all in primary school but I'm not sure that was a good thing. When I reached secondary school I had zero research skills and struggled with the time management.

I think schools need to strike a balance.

Tell you what:

All of you who are vehemently anti-homework should be allowed to insist your DC are never burdened by it, whilst people like me who can see a good reason for intelligently set H/W can retain it. And reap the benefits.

Just don't come moaning back when you begin to feel that my DC have been 'unfairly advantaged' over yours, OK?

As for 'changing the world' (work/life balances, etc)- excellent, but I'd rather my DC weren't the front line foot soldiers for this bold experiment, thanks.

'Rude'...? Blimey, that's taking it to a whole new level! Actually, KCB01- a serious question- have you considered HE as you appear to consider school to be an infraction of your family's rights! Your whole apparent experience of the enthusiastic self-guided learning that obviously happens in your home when the nasty imposition of school homework is removed is perhaps not everyone's experience. In in the real world where I live, DCs aren't desperately doing maths homework when they'd rather be watching educational and inspiring nature documentaries, they're messing about on computers or hooning at the skate park. And the 20 odd mins per night average my nearly 13 year old gets is hardly 'exhausting' him, I can assure you!

My feeling is that some well targeted homework is a fantastic preparation for A) the Serious exams and the self-discipline therein required, and B) them knowing there's something they have to do without a teacher standing over them. They have to plan it and structure it themselves. It IS 'over and above' school, it's maybe IS your 'unpaid labour' but it also IS reality.

Finally, in response to:

...'Littentree my 9 year old goes to a very academic independent school and has no homework at all! And that's the way it ought to be as she has an awfully long day and Saturday school'.........

You've got it, in 'awfully long school day'. Your DC are no doubt actually being taught from 8.30am to say 4.30pm. My nearly 13 year old is home, feet up, mucking about on an iPod at 3.15pm every day (if I actually allowed that!). You're not telling me he couldn't be 'persuaded' to put another hour's effort in if required.

Pupils need to read class texts at home; they need to do essay writing at home; they may need to do some research at home. They only get 200 mins a week with a qualified English teacher and this time is vital for the study of texts, the discussion of writing and the use of research. Without homework pupils would be back to reading round the class and writing a short paragraph once a week. Surely this would be a retrograde step. Homework is vital.

Thank Christ Gove has managed to do ONE thing that makes sense. Of course it should be up to schools to set their own homework policies - and preferably not demand anything beyond reading, spelling and times tables for primary age.

Shiiiiit.

I have long railed against homework, particularly at primary level.

I agree with Gove

"All of you who are vehemently anti-homework should be allowed to insist your DC are never burdened by it, whilst people like me who can see a good reason for intelligently set H/W can retain it. And reap the benefits.

Just don't come moaning back when you begin to feel that my DC have been 'unfairly advantaged' over yours, OK?"

As a teacher, I would rather see students work this out for themselves and learn independently because they want to, rather than through fear of punishment.

I wouldn't mind homework if there was some degree of consistency and feedback, but also if it resembled anything like my dc actually does during the school day.
They have spent the last 4 weeks making inca houses out of cottage cheese or some such shite, and then brought home maths problems which have made my maths whizz dh go

Yes, if I were a teacher, tethered, I'd rather my DC 'worked this out for themselves' re working independently, but hey, wheel out the average 13 year old boy and run that past him.

I'd rather get my DS through his 12 year old 'don't wanna's' to his 15 to 16 year old -'I might not be actively enjoying this assimilation of knowledge but I'm kinda glad I'm not at this late, crucial stage of my education trying to start learning the skills of time management, effective research and the need to commit (i.e. Get The Hell ON With It!) - because I am now mature enough to see the point of the years of cajoling, persuasion, reasoning with and yes, occasionally punishment delivered as a younger teenager that got me to this point'.... self.

My DS doesn't do his homework against a background of trembling fear, he does it because a) he has to, b) he even now at 12 and a half is beginning to recognises that his education and my interest in it is entirely for his benefit.

Via homework, he gets the 'three-legged-stool' idea of education, i.e. teacher/parent/pupil.

Isla, yes, I am entirely of the belief that h/w should be properly, consistently and intelligently set, not just given 'because we have to'... like it appears to be at my friend's DSs -ahem- private school.

...'Littentree my 9 year old goes to a very academic independent school and has no homework at all! And that's the way it ought to be as she has an awfully long day and Saturday school'.........

You've got it, in 'awfully long school day'. Your DC are no doubt actually being taught from 8.30am to say 4.30pm.
.........................

Oddly enough, although the above describes the school I went to, it couldn't be further from the primary DD went to, where they also had very little homework - that school had kids in it who didn't even get fed properly at home let alone have someone capapble of supervising homework.

Though for completely different reasons, they also took the line that any significant learning would be done at school - and it worked out fine for DD who didn't have her primary school years blighted by pointless homework, and moved quite easily to a reasonably academic secondary school & organising her homework there.

Though if I've understood, I think your beef is more to do with inconsistent homework at secondary level? And I probably agree with you on some of that.

And while I'm really glad that our primary set much less than the guidelines (most importantly didn't have weeknight homeworks), I am all for things like reading with children being encouraged in the early years, and independent projects in the later years of primary school. Things like open-ended projects which can really stretch the ones who were ready for it.

And I read something recently about teachers looking for signs of neglect in young children - parents never signing the reading diary was one of the ones mentioned (obv. in the context of other things like children turning up hungry & unwashed etc.) - so there's definitely value to the home / school relationship being monitored a bit.

But generally, I feel quite lucky that her progress didn't depend on us being to fit in half an hour of homework every night through primary school, because we really would never have managed it.

OK, but if my DS's later primary school day ended at 4.30pm- a good hour and a half longer than it does- I wouldn't necessarily want to see 'half an hour's homework every night', but even then I wouldn't have a problem with say an hour or even 2's h/w set on a Monday to be handed in a Monday hence.

As it is DS2 finishes at 3 and brings home a piece of Lit and a piece of Maths on a Weds night to be handed in the following Monday, which is fine, though I know he'd benefit from the above scenario I gave above of: "a short page of maths one night, 10 spellings another, thinking up a good topic for a story the third, a short project looking at what 100mls, 500mls and 1 litre of water look like in a jug the 4th?"

This would be more beneficial to a DS like my no 2 rather than 'an open ended project', foisted on a 9 year old DC who had no idea how to conduct meaningful research, what limiting parameters to impose, how to structure the work etc. In other words, h/w that absolutely needed parental input. But that's not to say that, seeing as our state education system adamantly will not allow struggling or gifted DCs out of their allocated year because they apparently differentiate the work within the class that your DD couldn't have 'the project' and my DS some maths questions!

But my 'beef' is ultimately that I can wholly see the value of properly and appropriately set h/w within the state sector from Y3 onwards, work that is relevant, useful, manageable, consistently set and marked.

Think is, the artivle seems to be being misread by quite a few.
He isn't actually saying Primary schools should set less homework (which would be great IMO, but you'll always have a 50:50 split on that).
He's just saying, that as part of a package (of which detail isn't given) they are just removing the "guidelines" of the recommended amount of homework that should be set. (which was never compulsory in the first place).

However, I like this bit "The Department for Education said yesterday that the shake-up formed part of the Government?s plan to give more autonomy to schools."

We'll have to wait and see if he actually means it, of course.

No, I think we've seen 'the government's plan to give more autonomy to schools' at work already- it's the more or less enforced Academy program. So, yes, suddenly we have the Head and the Governors absolutely in charge. Except, say, in giving permission to allow a hard-working, well-achieving DC a week off in term time to go on a holiday with its family. Oh no! Can't trust those irresponsible Head Teachers with that one.

See, tbh, I don't want fully autonomous schools, myself. I don't want a 'parent-lead' education system as it breeds Nutter philosophy schools, Religious fanatic schools, Agenda school, self-interest schools (cf TY). All well and good if those parents want it, set it up and pay for it but when it's now your local tax payer funded school- that's more than an 'issue'.

In the same way I don't want a 'patient lead' NHS. Looks great on paper- til you suddenly find there no money for neo-natal care because those 'patients' who have the time and money to impose themselves on the committees are the cashed-up, retired, educated elderly who have siphoned all the cash into geriatric care and hip-replacements whilst you were too busy holding down a FT job and managing your family to get 'involved'.

DD had the kind of homework your DS2 gets - it suited us because she could choose what night to do it on.

I absolutely agree that the tasks you are describing (short page of maths etc - basically donkey work) are things children need to practice to cement their learning. But in DD's school I guess they faced the fact that if all the children were to benefit from them, they'd just have to be fitted in during the school day somehow in some respects, but OTOH didn't leave DD unable to cope with the concept of homework at secondary.

The projects were just in Y5 & Y6 btw - and obv. some children will have had very little home input, so they weren't perfect. But they were structured so that they could be followed as a series of basic steps depending on the child.

And yes, differentiated work depending on the childs needs would be great .

But I don't think children lose out if they don't get significant homework until they're old enough to take responsibility for it on their own - with the proviso that that does mean they need to be taught adequately in school & given time to practice what they've learnt.

If that means schools need 6.5 hours a day instead of 6 to teach the little buggers, by all means schedule 6.5 hours (that would've suited me fine as a working parent, less childcare to pay for ) but if there was a school down the road that got the same results in 6 hours a day I expect DD would have preferred that one.

Good points LittenTree. I was speaking as someone worn down by over 20 years of various Gvmnts thinking they knew more about schools and education that the people who work in that field, and constantly introducing "initiatives" each term. However, nothing good can come out of the move towards making schools into acadamies - I have to agree with your there.