How does a grammar school education differ from an ordinary comprehensive?

[Haziedoll]

Lots of my friends are starting to talk about applying for grammar school in the next few years. I'm still undecided because it is too early to tell if that type of school is right for my child. We don't live in a grammar school area but the neighbouring county has grammar schools that are usually undersubscribed and lots of children from our primary school get places at grammar schools.

I have seen lots of threads on Mumsnet saying that if the child isn't exceptionally bright they will struggle at grammar school.

How exactly does the curriculum in a grammar school differ from a bog-standard comprehensive in a non-grammar school county? Given that both schools are following the national curriculum, why is it often said that children who just scrape through the 11 plus will struggle to keep up?

Grammars do not do the lower academic ability subjects that comps do to keep everybody motivated
and the other schools in grammar areas do not do the higher ability subjects because the academic kids have been scooped off to another place
a true comp covers everything from Latin to car repairs
and sends kids to Oxford as well as to dig ditches

The speed of the class, and the teachers expectations, will be geared to their range of intake. So if your child is rightly in the range of academic ability/achievement taken by the school, I'm sure he/she will be fine. But if he/she only just scraped in, after a lot of tutoring and an exceptionally good day on the actual exam, then he/she may be struggling to keep up, a lot of the time, in a lot of subjects.

It depends on the individual child whether that pressure brings out the best in them, or makes them feel like a failure and want to give up even trying.

Ok that's interesting TP2 because the less traditional subjects at our comp are only taken by a minority. Most pupils take the traditional subjects. Does that mean that there probably isn't a great difference between our comp and the grammar schools?

Where I am the local grammar doesn't offer hairdressing, tourism qualifications like the comp and secondary modern do.

The children at the Grammar have a lot more homework in the evenings than the other schools.

The children are something like the top 15% - so the work is generally set at a higher level. In a comp you will have kids that bright but a lot of kids who are average and some below average. The main focus of the work will be set at an average level with help for those who are struggling and extra work/different work for brighter ones. Many comps do stream though which helps with this.

Hazie
my DCs are at a comp.
DD has just finished year 9 options
English, English, Maths, Statistics, Triple Science, Geography, History, Latin, Spanish, Textiles

other options include
German, Spanish, RE, ICT, Art, Music, Astronomy, Business, Catering, Child development, Classics, Drama, Design, Food tech, Humanities, Media Studies, Music, PE, Sport BTEC, Sociology
and some kids do NVQ courses at the local tech college - like car maintenance

Here the pupils tend to take more GCSEs than the high schools. All GCSEs are sat as the higher paper, as opposed to the intermediate or lower paper, which enables puPils to get a higher grade. The highest you can achieve in intermediate papers is usually a B.

Expectations are higher, the pace is faster. I'm an old grammar school pupil (long time ago now!) DH is not, and it is clear from conversations we have that I was pushed much harder to achieve than he was. Like, I say that was a long time ago - things may be more comparable between selective and non selective schools now.

Viva
If you have grammars in an area, no other school can be called a "comp" as it does not comprehensively include all the children

I suspect there is a difference between the super-selectives like Tiffin where people apply from well out of catchment with few other grammars in the area, and grammars in counties which have fully retained the grammar system. The super-selectives may be catering only for the top (say) 5% of ability level whereas in the "normal" grammars it is more like the top 15 or 20%, so they need pace accordingly.

Amuminscotland - If we do eventually decide to enter ds for the 11plus, he won't be tutored, he will just do the practice papers at home. I wouldn't be too concerned because if he doesn't get in he still has a good school to go to.

I find it hard to imagine the type of education that both schools are providing because it is so different to my experience of school.

I went to a comprehensive that had a reputation of being a bit rough with low achievements. We were streamed for Maths and English but there was never an issue of people not keeping up because the lessons consisted of copying off the blackboard or using workbooks for maths. There were no class discussions so it wouldn't have been obvious if someone wasn't keeping up.

The top stream of a good comprehensive shouldn't differ much from a grammar school, whatever people say on here! The problem really occurs in wholly selective areas where there are no comprehensive schools because the "top set 25% are syphoned off into the grammar school, leaving the the other 75% to go to a high school.

at my girls' state grammar, there was an ethos of hothousing, and a good measure of eating disorders. only "proper" GSCEs/A-level/IB offered.

a few of those who had been really pushed by their private primary to pass the 11+ struggled, and needed tutoring to keep the pace. they may well have been happier elsewhere. from what I hear, it's not changed.

"Viva
If you have grammars in an area, no other school can be called a "comp" as it does not comprehensively include all the children"

Everytime I mention this on MN someone comes and tells me this. Believe me I know the difference between a comp and a secondary modern.

I live in a village between 2 towns. One town is all comps, no grammars. We're in the catchment for those comps. However we are also in the catchment for the grammar in the town in the opposite direction, though bizarrly not for the secondary modern there. So we truely do have a choice between a grammar and a comp.

And the kids in the town with the comps can't go to the grammar, its only our small village school which is between both areas. And the kids in the town with the grammar can't go to the comps.

Here in Hampshire, we have some rather excellent comps that feed into a rather excellent 6th form college that sends a bus load of students each year to Oxbridge.
If you have a TRULY comp system, there is the chance of really excellent education.
Sadly Kent, Lincolnshire and Buckinghamshire are nadgered by retaining the tripartite system
and much of London is scuppered by the negative feedback spiral of grammars and fee paying schools making the remaining state schools cater for the lowest 40% of ability in some areas.
DH is always depressed by the fact that some of the secondaries he goes to in London solely comprise what round here would be lower sets.

I'm thinking that perhaps there isn't much difference between the two schools then. We are fortunate that we are not in a grammar school county as our comp caters for everyone and lucky that we have the option of a grammar school education if we decide that's right.

It may come down to ds's work ethic. Is he going to be a coaster that needs the pressure of a grammar school or does he have the self-motivation to achieve without the extra push?

Viva
fair enough. You clearly have a very unusual situation locally

Normal schools do Latin gcse? I have never seen this! (Well, DH claims he did it, but that was ages ago) I didn't know that normal schools did vocational stuff either. I feel so out of touch and it is only a decade since I left high school!

(In our area, everywhere was comp, but for some reason, they were all called high schools)

As seeker says.
We have Grammars, but nothing like enough places to accommodate the top 2-25%.
Nearest senior schools loose a lot of bright children to them, but comps on the edge of catchment don't.

DDs Comprehensive actually gains motivated middle ability DCs, who choose to go to her rural comprehensive rather than the ones close to the grammar school.

Since they loose both ways, the nearest comprehensives to the grammar gets dreadful results and there have been reagent mergers and reorganisations.

DH went to a fully fledged grammar school in a totally selective area, only the Grammar offered university level exams.

My area went fully comprehensive while I was in infants. My school set everything accept PE from Y8. Top set were expected to get good results (although we were less respectful and more rebellious than DH). We did well because we wanted too not because we did heaps of HW.
(both schools got people into Oxbridge, and medical school, I got my first choice Russell group place).

OP I think you can only look at exam results, ofsteds and talk to as many people as possible. Even, without the complication of Grammars, I know comprehensives that have very different reputations.

Oh frig I should have proofed that

All the comps round here offer Latin to the top 30 or so in each year group.
Bohunt (the one that was not good enough for the nice lady in the DM) does too. From what I can gather - based on chatting to mums at the gym, and DH visiting hundreds of schools all over the country, it is now a common extension subject in comps.

And vocational stuff - yes, why not. If you have 300 in a year group its not hard to get enough pupils to make even unusual subjects viable.

My comprehensive offered Latin when I started, but the teacher left and his replacement taught German in addition to French not Latin.

DCs comp offers Latin and Mandarin, the toughest courses to get into are: Sports Training, Car Mechanics and other courses at the local college. The output is very few NEETs, and a reasonable number off to Oxbridge. It isn't a place that allows coasting either.
But you really need to decide by looking at the schools carefully, a label doesn't tell you much.

Haziedoll I would start researching possible schools now - websites, word of mouth or whatever and judge it on school rather than whether it is grammar or comp.

I live in central London and have one child at a local comprehensive (in the top class of the top set) and one at a superselective grammar with a long commute. There are no grammars in my local area. Both schools are Ofsted outstanding, both do Latin and both send kids to Oxbridge. The main difference between the schools is behaviour, much much worse at the mixed comp, compared to the girls' grammar. There are also differences in options (more languages at the grammar), the years public exams are taken (mainly in year 11 at the grammar; spread over three years at the comp). I would look at the schools individually taking factors such as commute, options, Ofsted, behaviour, access to music or the arts or sport and the general "vibe" into account.

Generally I would say if someone can pass the eleven plus they will not struggle in a normal grammar school.

As others have said, this will vary depending where you are in the COuntry. In some places, a grammar taking 25% will have a big impact on the schools that aren't grammars in that area (particularly if you add in a % going to private schools too, or areas where - it's a bit chicken and egg - families move out to avoid certain schools).
Where I live, it's not a grammar school area, but there are about 7 grammar schools in the City. They only take about 2% though, so there are still a whole heap of very, very capable children attending "the other schools". What you notice when you look round on the open evenings, is that nearly every one of these pupils is not only academically capable, but they all - or certainly a massively high proportion of them - are also very talented in other areas.... one example might be playing musical instruments. So the local grammars here, not only have a very elite groups of highly coached academically able youngsters, but those youngsters also get the opportunities to play in about 4 different ensembles in their spare time (say 'Flute Choir', Junior Wind Band, Junior Orchestra, maybe a certain type of smaller orchestra or band, etc). On looking round the 3 grammars we looked at for our 2 older dcs, the schools really were a class apart.
I know from parents of pupils who go there, they have a lot more homework as standard than either of mine do - which may, or may not be considered a positive by you.