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Generally help about South London schools and admissions

19 replies

ChocolatEtVin · 01/01/2012 15:59

We currently live on the Southwark/Lewisham boarder and are looking at secondary schools for our DTs for 2013 entry. As we have one DS and one DD we primarily want to look at mixed schools but sadly it seems the girls only schools do a lot better academically - would I be holding either of them back by discounting single sex schools? Also could anyone explain the banding system that most schools allocate places by? And if we live in Lewisham can we apply for Southwark schools? Finally does anyone know how oversubscribed the following schools are and are they any good?

Haberdashers' Aske's Hatcham College
The St Thomas the Apostle College
Harris Girls' Academy
Prendergast School (would we get in living just over a mile away?)
City of London Academy (nearly two miles away?)

One last question - admissions for Prendergast say that they allocate 10% of places on musical ability, how good do you have to be to get in based on this?

OP posts:
bigTillyMint · 01/01/2012 16:18

I will try!
The banding system is used by individual schools/ umbrella academies/LA's to ensure that individual schools take a broadly balanced range of children - so many from each band. These tests are done before places are allocated using the individual schools criteria.
For eg, I think Habs band the children then offer places on catchment criteria (once the SEN/child looked after/siblings is done)
Each school has their own criteria which is usually explained on their website and is in the Secondary Transfer book for that borough.

You can apply to any school in London including Grammars in Kent/Bexley and definitely both Southwark and Lewisham schools. Whether you get in depends on how well your DC meet their criteria.

Music scholarships for Prendergast / Habs are like hens teeth given the number applying - only way of getting in if you don't live on the doorstep.

Harris Girls is probably not particularly oversubscribed ATM, but seems to be increasing in popularity. Harris Boys ED is also quite popular.
I don't know much about St Thomas, other than it having alot of building work going on, or how popular COLA is.

Have you considered Sydenham Girls which has a good reputation and is popular with DD's friends.
And Forest Hill boys too.

ChocolatEtVin · 01/01/2012 16:27

Thanks, that's really useful. So does the banding mean that, say for Habs, one DC could get in and the other couldn't?
Re Harris Boys, we are almost three miles away so don't fancy our chances. Sydenham is 2.2 miles, so could be a chance. Forest Hill is 2.3 miles so could we be in with a chance?

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bigTillyMint · 01/01/2012 16:31

I think with twins, the sibling policy works, so if one gets a place, the other does too? But I'm not sure!

I don't know exactly how far Sydenham catchment is all round, but I know they have taken from Camberwell. I think Forest Hill might be tighter.

ChocolatEtVin · 01/01/2012 16:36

I think I'll have to contact the school to see if it's the same as sibling policy. Do all of the academies have different admissions criteria then?

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ChocolatEtVin · 01/01/2012 16:45

Also looking at Addey and Stanhope school.

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bigTillyMint · 01/01/2012 17:41

Yes, all the schools/academies seem to have different criteria - you will have to trawl the websites / get the borough Applying for a Secondary School Place book Smile

ChocolatEtVin · 01/01/2012 17:48

It's a good think we have a year to do so!

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prh47bridge · 01/01/2012 18:40

Community schools within an LA will usually all have the same admission criteria. Academies will generally have different admission criteria to the community schools and from each other. Faith schools will also be different.

If the school gives priority to siblings, once one child is at the school any further children will have priority but that doesn't guarantee a place. Banding doesn't really have any effect on that, although obviously your chances of getting in are reduced if you happen to be in a band where there are a lot of siblings.

Twins are different. Some schools and LAs operate a formal policy of admitting both twins even if that takes them over the admission number. In the absence of such a policy it is quite possible for one twin to be admitted and the other refused.

ChocolatEtVin · 01/01/2012 18:48

After reading the Ofsted for Harris Academy at Peckham it sounds like it has improved a lot, is this true and do you think it will soon be up there academically with schools like Habs?

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bigTillyMint · 01/01/2012 18:53

No, I don't think so.

ChocolatEtVin · 02/01/2012 13:19

Why is that, bigTilly?

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LondonMother · 02/01/2012 14:59

Banding is very complicated but here goes at explaining how it's used in Lewisham - with apologies if this is out of date in any particulars but this is how it used to work.

Lewisham community schools (a dwindling band as academies take over) and some of the voluntary aided and voluntary controlled schools used to use banding like this: all children attending Lewisham primary schools took a banding test at the end of year 5. When all the tests had been marked the children were ranked in order of their total scores. Very roughly, the top 20% were classified as Band 1A, the next 20% as Band 1B and so on through Bands 2A, 2B and 3. Each school said in its admissions policy that if oversubscribed (and they always are nowadays because of the way the secondary transfer system works) it would take 20% of its intake from Band 1A, 20% from Band 1B etc etc. This should mean that the school ends up with an intake that more or less matches the ability profile of the area as a whole. (In practice that doesn't always work out but that's the theory.) It also means that if they are more oversubscribed for Band 2A than for Band 1A (say) you need to live nearer as a Band 2A applicant than a Band 1A applicant to get a place. Many families find this very confusing.

Aske's uses banding in a different way. All applicants take a banding test in autumn of year 6 (a different one from Lewisham's). When the scores are in, applicants with a score of between (say) 91 and 100 are classified as Band 1, 84-90 as Band 2, and so on down the line to Band 9. (I've no idea what marks represent the actual boundary points between bands, just that there are 9 in total.) They then tot up how many applicants there are from each band.

Say there are 200 places available and 2000 applicants in total, of whom 500 have scored in the Band 1 range. That's one quarter of the total number of applicants. Aske's would then say that of the 200 places available 50, ie one quarter, will go to Band 1 applicants. If 50 applicants were in Band 9, they'd save 50/2000 places for Band 9 applicants, ie 5.

As you can probably see, that means that if Aske's is swamped with applications from higher ability children (which it usually is) its intake will reflect that because they will get more places. Of course, if it suddenly got a lot more applications from lower ability children the reverse would be true, but that hasn't happened because, I assume, parents of lower ability children tend to assume that Aske's isn't for the likes of their children, especially if they live more than a few metres from the front gate. Whereas the higher ability children's parents will apply from miles and miles away on the offchance...

This is a contrast from the Lewisham position because using its banding policy they will never take more than 20% from Band 1A.

You'd have to check, but I believe Prendergast Hilly Fields uses banding in the same was as Aske's does. Not sure what all the academies do.

Hope this helps and good luck!

ChocolatEtVin · 02/01/2012 17:08

That's starting to make sense, thanks LondonMother. I think it's likely that my DS would be a top band student but DD would more likely be a lower band. Would that affect their chances of both getting places at Habs or if their sibling policy applys for twins would it make their chances of both getting in higher (is there more chance for higher ability students to get a place)? Also do you have any opinions on the above schools (including Harris Academy at Peckham)?

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IndianOcean · 03/01/2012 14:43

I have replied on your other thread.
You need to check all the schools' prspectuses for details on sibling policy, or the relevant LA policy if they are a community school.
Your application will need to be in in Oct 2012.
There is no substitute for visiting the schools, with your child with you.
There is often lots of movement, with people getting in from waiting lists right up until the beginning of term.
Some people introduce some practice papers, based on the Verbal Reasoning, Non-verbal reasoning and Quantitive Reasoning (maths) papers that some schools use, especially if any schools you apply to have a competitive selective intake.

psammyad · 03/01/2012 16:21

There are now no community secondary schools in Southwark - all are either faith or academy, so each may have it's own admission policy.

Harris Girls isn't oversubscribed AFAIK, but it's GCSE results last year were very good - I don't know much else about it though.

sydenhamhiller · 09/05/2012 14:47

Slight hi-jacking (sorry OP!) - reading this with interest as we also live on Southwark/ Lewisham border. We are Southwark residents, but DC go to Lewisham primary 15 min walk away - one of closest schools in border area.

Annoyingly, our closest secondary by far, and closest Southwark secondary is Kingsdale, which would be great as I have boy and girl and I quite liked my co-ed experience. However, they have byzantine admissions, and it's a real lottery getting in - at 0.4 milesI understand we have an equal chance with someone from Islington...

Aaaaaanyway, , we are lucky to have Sydenham Girls and Forest Hill Boys not too far away, but I'm a little worried about whether the fact we are Southwark residents puts us further down the list. Do any local lurkers know?

Thanks.

LondonMother · 09/05/2012 16:45

I'm sure the real experts will be along soon but I'm about 99% certain that admissions authorities are not allowed to give preference on the basis of what borough you live in. There was a famous judgement about this 20 years or so ago when Greenwich tried to give priority to its children over Lewisham children when deciding admissions to Thomas Tallis, if I recall correctly. As Thomas Tallis school is very close to the borough boundary and lots of Lewisham children had always gone there, the parents were up in arms. I think it went all the way to the High Court and the parents (or Lewisham LEA, or whoever brought the appeal) won. However, these things keep changing so it's not impossible this has changed in some way recently - so check with Lewisham LEA Admissions team, I'd say.

Good luck!

bigTillyMint · 09/05/2012 16:47

I think LM is right - it's got nothing to do with which borough you live in AFAIK.

prh47bridge · 09/05/2012 20:36

LondonMother is right that an LA cannot in general give priority to children from within its area. However, the Greenwich judgement has to be read in conjunction with the later Rotherham judgement. In broad terms that means they can set catchment areas for schools that happen to run along the LA's boundary. However, most LAs don't operate formal catchment areas so children from outside the LA have the same chance of getting in as children from inside the LA.

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