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Will free schools drive up standards? Read Toby Young's guest post and join the conversation

705 replies

ElenMumsnetBloggers · 01/12/2011 10:46

Are free schools ready to fall or fly? Do they really drive up standards or are they a snobbish gimmick? And should more parents be setting up their own schools? Journalist and producer Toby Young explains why he set up the West London Free School and what makes the free school proposition an exciting one. Join the conversation that Toby's begun and have your say on free schools.

OP posts:
BoffinMum · 05/12/2011 22:14

The data on speech development amongst children in different social groups is quite compelling, actually.

fivecandles · 05/12/2011 22:17

I've got a friend who has tutored a family of Chinese children since the age of 3 with a view to them getting a scholarship. That's a huge commitment financial and otherwise from that family. What if you're a genius with feckless parents or parents who don't value education or you'd be concerned about being ostracised by your mates for going to the posh school down the road? What if your parents can't afford the uniform or have learnign difficulties that prevent them filling out the application form? I have taught students for whom many of these apply.

claig · 05/12/2011 22:21

'What if you're a genius with feckless parents or parents who don't value education or you'd be concerned about being ostracised by your mates for going to the posh school down the road?'

I agree. I think these kids should be identified, (by some form of selection), and placed in elite academic schools. I think there are thousands of them languishing in failing schools.

fivecandles · 05/12/2011 22:22

'"why don't our top schools expand"'

And you're back to the paradox about selection. If everyone is selected then you're not selcting at all and standards go down. And what happens to the schools and kids left behind?

If you give out a few more bursaries to private schools and you open a few free schools and you expand a few more high performing schools then the schools left behind get even worse.

Why can't you understand that the schools that do best in the league tables are not there because they have some special magic educational dust it's because they have the biggest intake of highperforming students.

claig · 05/12/2011 22:24

'I've got a friend who has tutored a family of Chinese children since the age of 3 with a view to them getting a scholarship.'

It's not material poverty that makes teh greatest difference, it's poverty of aspiration and low expectation. Those Chinese parents have an extremely high expectation and therefore they will meet it.

claig · 05/12/2011 22:26

'If everyone is selected then you're not selcting at all and standards go down. And what happens to the schools and kids left behind?'

Not everyone has to be selected. You teach in a comprehensive. The kids who remain at your school will still be taught by you. Why will that be worse for them than it is now?

fivecandles · 05/12/2011 22:27

'I am hoping that creating new models such as free schools might make things better.'

Well, clearly not, if the free school in your area is a Seikh school and you're not a Seikh.

But even if you accept that some bright kids from disadvantaged backgrounds may get into the free schools, can you not see how that will have a detrimental effect on the other schools in the area?

fivecandles · 05/12/2011 22:31

'On the whole I agreee with that, but that is due to social factors outside the sphere of education and the often failing schools they go to.'

Well, exactly.

That is what I've been arguing for the last few days!

claig · 05/12/2011 22:32

'Why can't you understand that the schools that do best in the league tables are not there because they have some special magic educational dust it's because they have the biggest intake of highperforming students.'

Are the most deprived Chinese children who do better than the wealthiest white British children at the top schools? I doubt it. But if there was more selection, then they would be.

I think lots more high performing state schools can be created by selecting teh brightest state kids and many will outperform our current top schools.

And I do think there is an educational dust at top schools. I believe it is teachers. I don't believe that all teachers are the same and get the same results.

BoffinMum · 05/12/2011 22:34

You might believe it, but I think we're not exactly sure why?

fivecandles · 05/12/2011 22:34

'Research that shows that poor children are behind by 9 months at the age of 3 and that the gap is doomed to increase at GCSE level may create low expectation.'

Wilful misinterpreation - nobdody is saying that children are 'doomed'. It is a FACT that there is a difference on average and this difference increases.

Pretending things aren't there doesn't make them go away.

Knowing these things helps you deal with them.

claig · 05/12/2011 22:35

'Well, exactly.
That is what I've been arguing for the last few days!

So have I. The difference between us is I want better schools which I believe can be created by new models and more choice, competition and selection and you want better schools in the existing model and want to solve lots of social problems at the same time, while restricting parents' freedom to send their kids to faith schools etc.

fivecandles · 05/12/2011 22:36

Do you generally bury your head in the sand when you come across facts you don't like?

There are people who say the same things about smoking i.e. I don't believe those statistics because they challenge my views not because I have any evidence to refute them.

claig · 05/12/2011 22:38

'You might believe it, but I think we're not exactly sure why?'

Don't you think that some teachers are better than others, can explain things better, can enthuse and inspire children better? Do you think they are all teh same? Do you think all university lecturers are teh same?

claig · 05/12/2011 22:40

fivecandles, someone once said "there are lies, damned lies and statistics"

I believe some statistics can be shaped to meet political objectives.

fivecandles · 05/12/2011 22:47

'So you think teh pupils teach themsleves? That there is no difference between teachers? That there is no such thing as a failing teacher?'

What a lot of horrible assumptions you make.

Why would you assume that teachers in poorly performing schools are failing? Some of the most gifted teachers I've ever worked with have worked in very challenging schools i.e. in Hackney where most children have English as a second language and many have learning difficulties. My dp works in a school for EBD where practically nobody gets grade C or above at GCSE yet he and his colleagues have an expemplary record of achievement in other schools. I also have a huge amount of experience of workign with teachers in independent schools. Now I don't want to start saying they're worse teachers because that just fuels the divide further but they are different. THey work in different ways and have different challenges because of the nature of their schools.

A teacher with a class of 15 highly ambitious, highly literate girls doesn't really have to do very much to get good results.

YOu want to look at value added though.

Interestingly, I have a colleague who regularly works as a consultant in private schools and our local private school has come to use our facilities and expertise in science because they're a hell of a lot better than there's.

Another point to remember is that teachers are not trained in either state or indepednent education. Many teachers move between the sectors. The vast majority of teachers work in the state sector.

claig · 05/12/2011 22:51

I'm horrible now as well. So there are no bad teachers at all?

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1332464/Sack-bad-teachers-urges-Ofsted-chief-Pupils-failed-dull-uninspiring-lessons.html

claig · 05/12/2011 22:53

I never said private schools were better than state schools

fivecandles · 05/12/2011 22:54

'Not everyone has to be selected. You teach in a comprehensive. The kids who remain at your school will still be taught by you. Why will that be worse for them than it is now?'

Can you really not spot any flaws with creaming off the most able students and giving them an elite education (i.e. the grammar school system) and leaving the rest behind? Neither school would be comprehensive would it? And what do you think would happen to the self esteem and aspirations of those who weren't selected (possibly mssing out by one mark)?

I don't teach in a compehensive actually although I've worked in many. I teach in a large 6th form college with an intake of 1000 students + each year from a huge range of different schools and with a huge range of abilities.

fivecandles · 05/12/2011 22:58

'Are the most deprived Chinese children who do better than the wealthiest white British children at the top schools? '

Chinese children are dispropritionatly rerpesented at state grammar schools and independent schools where they may or may not be on bursaries actually.

But I'm not sure what your point is because it seems to be contradicotry. Are you recognizing that kids with ability and aspiration can do perfectly fine at comprehensive schools even poorly performing ones? If so, I totally agree.

claig · 05/12/2011 22:59

I think everyone would be a winner. I don't think it would hurt their self esteem. I don't think they are as fragile as that. Children fail to get into selective schools now, and of course for a while it is a great disappointment. But they get over it and life goes on.

I don't think we should shut down Oxford University just because the majority of people can't go there.

claig · 05/12/2011 23:01

'But I'm not sure what your point is because it seems to be contradicotry. Are you recognizing that kids with ability and aspiration can do perfectly fine at comprehensive schools even poorly performing ones? If so, I totally agree.'

Yes I think they can. However, I believe that some don't maximise their potential there and they would in a selective school.

BoffinMum · 05/12/2011 23:02

Claig, have you thought of doing a social science postgrad degree? You are going around in circles at the moment but I think you'd find it very interesting to explore all this in more depth.

fivecandles · 05/12/2011 23:03

'And I do think there is an educational dust at top schools. I believe it is teachers. I don't believe that all teachers are the same and get the same results.'

So, you don't think the fact that most independnet schools have highly competitive selection process involving exams and interviews have anything to do with it?

I'm struggling to comprehend how anyone can be so let's call it naive.

And you honestly believe that the private sector has the monopoly on good teachers and they only employ good teachers? Even though if only 7% of children are educated privately the private sector must employ much less than 7% of all teachers. You really do make me chuckle.

claig · 05/12/2011 23:05

No my studying days are over. But it is a very interesting subject.