Why won't my DCs respond well to parental help?

[Solo2]

I can't afford to pay for private tuition for my twins - aged 10 and currently in Yr 6. Both need more help in Maths and have important exams after half-term. There's a check list revision sheet given by their school on what they'll need to know for the maths exam. I've been trying to help each of them separately, by doing what I thought were 'fun' things like BBC Bitesize Maths tests - with the emphasis NOT on them getting things right but using this as a vehicle for me to find out what they find difficult and why and showing them techniques to help them.

It's a disaster! It's ALWAYS like this. The minute I try to help them, DT2 (who I already know likes to do everything 'by himself'), cries and gets instantanseously upset the minute I suggest there are other ways of doing things or that something might actually be wrong. He has Asperger's traits and prides himself on his intellectual abilities and feels terrible when he can't achieve - but his skills lie in English/ Literacy not in Maths. So he really needs some help.

DT1 was born with a far greater ability in Maths than either his twin or myself ( single mum, no father in our family BTW). However, he's failing even more than his twin in Maths and has lost all confidence and natural ability. I've spent 25 minutes with him again today trying to do some humourous, fun and relaxed maths with him, whilst showing him other ways of doing things that are quicker and easier. His response is anger, grumpiness and a bolshi attitude which I also thinks hides anxiety and upset underneath.

I know that every other child in their year group has been doing loads of revision all half term with their parents in preparation for the exams. I also know that many of those children will do some initial grumpy responses as they get going but generally will comply with parental support and enjoy the attention they get.

What am I doing wrong? I'm desperately trying to boost my DCs confidence and get them to see maths as fun and I'm obviously failing miserably as DT2 went off in tears and DT1 told me blatantly that "Nothing you've told me today has helped me in any way at all, Mummy".

They're in the 3rd of 4 maths sets in their year group - (so not quite the bottom but certainly DT1 is near the bottom of his set) and their (scary to them) teacher is retiring at Xmas. They'll then get the 5th maths teacher they've had in the last 2 years (due to staff turnover.) This hasn't helped of course but can't be the only reason why both have no confidence in maths.

They USED to have a bit of private tuition from yr 2 to yr 3 and DT1 especially did better with that. Also DT2 had a lovely maths teacher 2 yrs ago and came on in maths a lot then. So clearly a central issue is the relationship they have with a teacher. But given I can't do anything about their current teacher and can only provide myself as an extra help and support, how on earth can I help my twins to enjoy and learn from what they do with me, instead of perceiving it as, at best an endurance test and at worse, me 'getting at them'?

My DSs are like this, they have ADHD with ASD traits. We can barely read a school book together without them storming off in a huff.

I have no useful advice i'm afraid but will be interested to hear other POV. At the moment I use tutors for everything as like you found they yield much better results. However we are planning to send DS1 to an independent secondary next year so there will be no more funds for extra tuition.

Well at least mine are not the only ones then! I already pay school fees and can't afford private tuition on top of this. Anyone else with ideas/ personal experience?

Well, my dd is much younger, although she gets very grumpy if I try to help her with home work. Sometimes worse than others, but definitely if it's me putting the pressure on.

What's the school's take on their likelihood of passing these exams? What are they for? So many teachers over a couple of years wound honestly be setting alarm bells off for me about the school Ditto having to supplement private schooling with lots of tuition - isn't that what you're already paying for?

They may do better in the exams than it seems like they will at the moment and, if not, well, there's always a plan B, surely?

Could you ask another parent to swap? My year 6 ds would respond well to any adult other than me so I would swap with you if my son was on your class.

In your shoes I'd start with something too easy (maybe y4 or y5 level?) for confidence or do stealth maths like Timez Attack (free downloadable times table game) because to me a lot of ks2 maths seems to be rooted in times tables/division.

My son was the same. I remember the words, 'mum, you've got to help me with my maths' which always ended in him not listening, followed by a shouting match. So I don't think you are doing anything wrong. And I also doubt that every other child is happily doing maths with their parents during the holiday. There will also be parents who are unable to help.

With any luck the new teacher will be more helpful and approachable, although that will be after the exam.

I could have written this post! My Year 6 (but Year 5 age) daughter has EXACTLY that reaction when me or dad try to help. I have no idea what to do about it but was beginning to wonder if she has Aspergers traits - she gets SOOOO angry (though not physical).

I have no experience of dealing with Aspbergers traits, but know that my twin boys settled into parental help when they realised it was non negotiable and consistent (which isn't true of most of my lax parenting!) :)

I give them 1/2 hour to unwind after school, get the dinner on then do 20-30 mins with them while it cooks. They kick up a fuss, but I just work methodically through KS2 maths book.

You could give them a work book like that, or 11+ or Sats papers and ask them to work through them and let you know when they couldn't do something. If they refuse even to ask for help, just mark the papers and then sit calmly with them and discuss how the wrong answer was reached, ask them to show their workings on paper and sort out where they slipped up.

We also chat generally about the benefits of hard work and what it leads to; about effort not just attainment etc. (All this v low key over snacks or dinner. Not Big Chats.) We also discuss why I like helping them and I add a bit of bribery, e.g. a visit to a theme park, Pizza Express or the cinema if they work hard for 20 mins night for half a term without complaint. Emphasise reward for effort and attitude as they are more important at the outset than attainment.

I hated being taught by my mother in such circs, although she is a) brilliant b) a teacher. [Note huge daughterly insecurities here - she was also v beautiful - cry] I found it immensely upsetting to admit failure in front of her, when I wanted to make her proud of me. So it really isn't just you or even just this generation. So when DS and I sat down to do stuff together it didn't surprise me when exactly the same pattern emerged even though I am none of the things she is.

It still happens sometimes but like racing heart, I've found that timing is key - neither hungry nor on a sugar rush; limited time - 20 mins, a pause; reward system based mainly around effort; and I'd add, admission of things I really really can't do. DS is still trying to teach me fractions. I was never taught them and loathe them (blushes) although decimals, calculus - ha! (and have to confess that I now don't try quite so hard so that I can still be tactically shamed). So if there is something you find hard, can you admit it and get him/them to teach you? Makes it more fun for them.

Thanks. These exams used to be the ones you had to pass to get into the senior part of the school but they no longer have an exam if they're internam candidates. However, they still use the exams to finalise their thoughts about each child's suitability for the seniors. They should also already have informed parents whether their child really wouldn't be happy in the seniors and should consider other schools and 'no news is good news'. However, DT1 isn't a high flyer at any core subject and is one of those boys where teachers think he has potential but doesn't try/ doesn't focus etc. He stryggles in Maths but I still feel he has natural ability with this.

I can barely do their maths already! The school is doing 13+ maths at this stage (year 6, 10 yr olds Key Stage 3) because it's that sort of school but this means that the maths I struggled with about 35 yrs ago now and haven't touched since is exactly what I'm trying to help them with!

So yes they get a lot of me genuinely saying - how do you do this kind of sum at your school? Can you show me?...and also me sometimes genuinely getting things wrong which I would have hoped would boost their own confidence.

However, they both hate to be wrong themselves and so even seeing their mother failing and laughing about it doesn't seem to help them.

I do try to help them when they're not hungry, not tired, have had a break etc but nothing seems to work. I may well need to find someone else to help us out. I've told them that I'm not worried if they get something wrong, I'm purely interested in finding out HOW they're working things out and if there are other ways that are easier and quicker of doing things and how exactly they might be going wrong.

My late mother was also a teacher and helped myself and siblings with HW and taught us beyond the curriculum level. I remember never enjoying her input but also never protesting about it either. We just accepted it.

DTs really protest all the time. I could try more reward based input. the only thing with this is that with other things like tidying up, helping out etc, if I give rewards then that seems to stimulate the demand for ever more or better and the assumption that they'll do nothing unless they get money for it!

Are your children struggling with the maths to the extent that you are seriously thinking of getting a tutor? It might be better to allow them to admit that they are stuck on the homework and ask the teacher for help. (She is presumably a maths teacher, after all, which you are not) It does seem a bit strange that the school is teaching maths aimed at children 3 years older when they seem to be struggling with it so much that you have to try help on such a regular basis and are thinking of enlisting outside help.

CecilyP, they don't struggle all the time and nor do I help them most of the time. Generally, they do HW alone and unaided. There are 4 Maths sets and my twins are in the second from the bottom, so not at the absolute bottom. They always pass exams but as the class avearge is often 88% or something in maths, they often get below average. Many children here score 99% for age 13 maths when they're only 10 or 11 yrs old. So it's a competitive peer group.

If they were doing 10 yr old maths, I expect they'd be totally fine. They go to the sort of school, though, where there are lots of genuine maths geniuses and v bright children so that the school does many subjects above the usual level. Some of their peers are competing at a national level already in maths competitions (not in their set I hasten to add!). So there's a high standard.

It's also the sort of school where it's not uncommon for parents to get outside tuition for their DCs or tutor them themselves and this has increased for this year cohort, which is the largest the school has ever had. So the class size is larger than normal (26 in each maths set up until v v recently - which of course isn't large for an ordinary school but larger than normal for a fee paying school I think).

Re. their maths teacher, he's just about to retire and is v 'old school' as a teacher and is head of school maths, although teaching the Yr 6 third set. Lots of children love him but mine are terrified of him. He has a deadpan sense of humour which my DCs don't get at all but he also uses sarcasm and threat/punishment, so this hasn't exactly helped their anxiety. The teacher they had before him though was even more sarcastic and publicly humiliated DT1 in front of the class regularly. DCs have had 5 different maths teachers (due to staff turnover) in the last 2 yrs so the lack of continuity hasn't helped.

DT1 told me this halfterm that when he gets left behind in class, they're all told just to leave the exercise and move on to the next and DT1 therefore doesn't get his work marked (as i found when I looked at his book) so has no idea if it's right or wrong nor where it's going wrong. Both often daren't ask if they get stuck.

So I've been going through their books, which I rarely get to see anyway and trying to glean where they struggle and why - not easy as I'm probably dyscalculic!

I've asked the school and various maths teachers over the years to give me some very very specific examples - at the 'flow diagram' level - to show me exactly how they can help a child to think things through one step at a time and what methods exactly that the school use but the usual responses have been things like, "just let them go on Mathletics" or "he needs to practice his timestables still and get instantaneous recall, that's all".

Recent example of where I've struggled to help DCs with things would include when you're dividing and multiplying mixed fractions - at least I think that's what they're called, when the denominator is different? I wanted to know exactly what they had been told in terms of when to simplify the fractions and when to make the denominator the same and they couldn't tell me what rule if any they'd learned but clearly they weren't sure about making the denominator the same and thought they should just simplify the fractions - thus leading to several mistakes.

When I tried to go through with a step by step guide to how I'd do these and why it worked, they were dismissive, didn't pay attention and basically took nothing in! I don't even know if I'm using the same terminology that's used at school, so maybe that's part of the problem - or it's just that they're unsure and anxious and can't get past this and make use of what I'm showing them.

Hello, pre-children I taught maths and frequently met the situation you are describing - your not alone, your children are in no way unusual.

I think of it as a brick wall, the moment maths is mentioned the student feels a huge brick wall, built up of not quite understanding, just getting by, losing confidence, not knowing the answers to questions as fast as others in the room, knowing that because maths always has a right answer any alternative will be wrong, pressure, speed, pressure, speed, panic, brain freeze, melt-down.
For those struggling they will hit melt-down instantneously, the moment maths is mentioned.
Whilst your children may contain their melt-downs at school, their brains are still frozen and unable to process lessons, at home they are simply freer to express their panic.

I will say this, though I know you will not like it, but in this situation parents are the woarst people to teach their children maths.

I say this because in order to have raised a child for ten years who is now seeing maths as a brick-wall I am sure that you as parents do not have an awe-inspiring love of mathmatics yourselves.

Without a passion for nummeracy it simply is not possible to pass on that passion and enthusiasm to children.
I would say the very best you could do would be to think about all the people you know (particulalry concentrate on males) and seek out those that have an interest in maths, these will be adults who enjoy sukudo,chess,military history,engineering,accountancy etc.

Ask them for a helping hand and watch their faces light up - there are lots of us who totally love maths, I'm sure you'll have people in your life who will lend a hand.

While I wouldn't claim to have an awe-inspiring love of mathematics, I would say that maths was my 'thing', but I could have written Solo2's last 2 paragraphs about trying to help my DS. I do think you are right about being freer to express their panic with their mum and hence the behaviour, so agree that if Solo2 could enlist someone who is keen on maths and less emotionally involved it would be a great help.

I also hope the DTs have much better luck with their next maths teacher.

Thanks Cecily (and sorry Op!) - I didn't express my point very well - yup "awe-inspiring" was a bit OTT !

OP, look I don't want to be too harsh but if you are struggling with their maths and get it wrong then you are probably not the right person to help them.
Even though it is really well meaning, you are in danger of mixing things up for them more than anything. Also, and I am talking from experience here, if you explain things in a different way than school, it can make things more complicated for them. I can remember spending quite abit oif thime with dc1's teacher when he was in Y1 to understand the way she was explaining some maths. And not 'getting it' for quite sometime. But explaining things my way (a quicker way in my eyes) would have been detrimental 1- because it's not what dc1 had been taught, 2- because the way of doing things is different therefore not accepted. (BTW I am an engineer so numbers aren't an issue at all for me!)
Now do you think that could explain why your dcs don't want to do some work with you? Because the way you dothings is too different for them?

The one thing I am finding very worrying is your description of the teaching system. How on earth is a child suppose to learn if they are not marked (and if no one explains them what is right or wrong)??? I would start by having a word with the school tbh. I am expecting (and getting) much better support at my dcs non paying school.

BTW I think you are very brave to take on such a task. Trying to explain to your dcs things that you never quite had a handle with the added pressure of 'entrance exams' on the top of it is a huge task.

That's OK, Rosemary. I have just thought that Solo2's problem also sounds like the same sort of stress that is often incurred when teaching a family member to drive.

Sorry but this :- "DT1 told me this halfterm that when he gets left behind in class, they're all told just to leave the exercise and move on to the next and DT1 therefore doesn't get his work marked (as i found when I looked at his book) so has no idea if it's right or wrong nor where it's going wrong. Both often daren't ask if they get stuck." is awful.

Really awful. Neglect and, in conjunction with the public humiliation of your child that you describe, abuse.

Teaching involves offering appropriate guidance to help students know what they did correctly, recognise what wasn't and why it wasn't, and guidance to improve. What you describe here is crap and it makes me feel angry that you're paying for your children to be pushed way beyond their level (academically and chronologically) and somehow get left feeling that it's you not the school that actually need to do the teaching.

Thanks again for the feedback. Yes, I'm probably the last person to teach DTs maths. I still haven't recovered from my convent school methods in the 60s where I was put in a class of 6 to 7 yr olds at aged 4 as I was working above my age group. But in maths, I wasn't quite that far ahead and the school method was to get children to stand out in front of the whole class to answer questions on the board and if you got it wrong, you were hit - but obviously couldn't let yourself cry or show fear in front of the others. So 44 yrs on, this still sits in my mind when I hear the very word, "Maths" and must have communicated itself to my DCs along the way!

Unfortunately, there are no males - or even females - in our lives who could help out for free. The two best 'teachers' my DTs ever had were a TA who tutored them one to one about 3 or 4 yrs ago. She now works at their school and even occasionally takes out the children struggling in any maths set and has had mine out once only though since term began. However, she's not allowed to tutor children she teaches at the school and can no longer tutor anyway for various reasons. She was brilliant though as she's v good at maths, v kind and patient and also has a maths genius son who went to the same school a while back - so she knows the expectations, the teaching methods etc.

The other brilliant teacher taught DT2 in Yr 4 and it's entirely thanks to him that DT2 - who is actually not naturally inclined to maths at all - stays ahead of DT1 who I'm certain has more natural ability. Unfortunately, this teacher now does the maths set just above DTs and was appointed to that set just after DTs were both 'demoted' to the set below near the end of last year. So they haven't a chance of getting him. But he was a great male role model too - calm, patient, tolerant, inspired confidence and did things step by step.

The new teacher that the school will appoint after Xmas is unknown although DTs have mentioned a "geeky looking man who might be made head of maths and who came to try out doing a class"...but we'll have to see.

Re. talking to the current maths teacher, I'm afraid it's exactly as my DCs fear. He'll 'take it out on them' if I mention the lack of work marked. He'll make it the child's fault for being slow/ not handing it in etc. I have thought of going in despite this but not sure if I should leave this now till after the exams that are 2 weeks after halfterm....I'm also not exactly sure what to say to him, as what i really want to say is, "my twins are too scared of you to keep asking you when they don't understand something and as a result, when I went over some things with them in the hols., I realised that neither is confident in any of the topics covered at all. Can you spend the next week, before the exams, giving them one to one time to catch up but be really patient and kind with them?...."

That's exactly my point, Solo2. In a decent school which treats children and parents with respect, you should be able to say exactly what you 'really want to say' without any fear that the teacher will 'take it out on' your children.

I would say that patience and kindness should be a given for people involved in anyway with primary aged children as young as 10. I find it extraordinary that you'd find it too hard to ask for this from those purportedly 'teaching' your children (though from what you've described, 'teaching' is used in the loosest possible sense).

Are you in Cambridge, solo?