Private school pupils penalised

[Cortina]

school

Thoughts on this? Has this been happening anyway? Interesting.

25% of children would qualify for free school meals at my sons private school, so I have no idea how it would affect them,

Yes Damsel all of the things you mention are used to view the potential student as an individual. No one is disagreeing with this, but the above is a blanket policy and doesn't take account of individual differences such as student who works in Mc Donalds.

If parents are that worried about it all, there is always a place for them in a state school. The opposite is not true for most parents.

Comparisons to Eton aren't helpful either.
Most day schools are far closer to good comps in most ways than they are to Eton. The experiences at schools like Eton are just are far removed from those at a local private day school so talk of excessive priviledge and social networking is irrelevant.

Grading the school is fine. My issue was with the thread title and article suggesting it was a private Vs state issue when it really isn't. If it's about addressing the fact that many very bright childreen under achieve in a very poorly performing school then fine; I have no issue with that. I do have a issue with suggesting that a child from schools such as my local state secondary deserve preferential treatment over children like mine who attend the local independent day school.

Oh and as for the 'Amazon Basin' jibe, the last state school I supply taught in sent their 6th formers to India to help build a school over the summer and sent the rugby team on a tour of South Africa. Most parents paid without hesitation. So experiences such as those are certainly not the preserve of the independents.

Apologies for my spelling and grammar.

I dont care how much they penalise children from independent schools I would not remove my son, I am not paying for a place a Oxbridge that it not what education is all about in the truest sense of the word. Good independent schools should be enabling my son to become a true renaissance man that is what I'm paying for.

The amazon basin 'jibe' was not intended just to relate to kids at private schools. Regardless what school you went to, spending a summer trekking in the amazon basin or 'building' a school in Ghana only tells me that your parents could afford for you to do this.

I'd imagine that universities would look at the profile of each school, regardless what sector they were in.

The point still remains that anyone can send their kids to a state school though.

happygardening

I'm assuming that your friend with kids at an Ivy League school is UK-based and therefore they are foreign students. In this case, they would not be eligible for affirmative action programs which is probably why she is unaware of them.

As others have said, US universities operate huge AA and equal opportunities programs with quotas and scholarships for people from disadvantaged backgrounds and minorities - far in advance of anything being proposed in the UK. Harvard, for example, has operated a specialist undergraduate minority recruitment program for over 25 years.

US college entry is actually rather less result focused than the UK - extra-curricular activities and achievements play a far greater role than they do in the UK.

As there were almost 33,000 students with 3As or more at A level in 2009 (assume similar or more for 2010 and 2011), I imagine that universities are desperately searching for a way to sift out the best candidates with the highest potential to work in a self-motivated way and go on to do well.

I wouldn't remove my kids either. I am not paying to 'buy' them higher exam results. I don't give a fig about that. I pay for everything else they get day to day. As a state school teacher who has taught in both primary and secondary, I had my eyes wide open and all I saw was too much obsession with results and league tables and making sure that bright kids got great results in academic Alevels.

As a mother of 4, one of whom is exceptionally bright, I wanted to make sure that what they received was education for the sake of it rather than a push to the finish, a means to an end, which is all I seem to see in most state schools.

Anyway, I digress. Just wanted to clarify that its not about buying your kids better exam results.

More than 20% of Etonians are assisted by bursaries/scholarships. Just for the record.

lovingthecoast, I agree with the gist of your post but have to be honest that I also thought I was paying for my DS to reach his academic potential - which translates into grades IYSWIM.

Oh I do want them to reach their potential, of course I do. However, DD1 was labelled gifted when she was just 3yrs and didn't want her going to a school which got excited about pushing her fast and furiously down a narrow academic alley. I wanted her stretched sideways and to be taught with an open mind so that if she shows a passion for music or art then they encourage her down that route rather than coax her towards 5 academic Alevels and an application to Oxbridge. I see that over and over again with bright kids at state schools.

I suspect that discrimination against private schools already exists. At my DS Independent school nearly 40% of the year go onto Oxford and Cambridge and that figure is rising. But I have heard some masters say that they no longer know what these universities are looking for. They are finding that the really really able are not getting in but the less able are (its all relative of course) are (its got nothing to do with other interests etc). The friend who sent her children to the US Ivy Leagues also found the same. I suspect that this is why schools like Eton, St Paul's, Winchester are increasingly looking to the US.

I absolutely agree with lovingthecoast my DS would get the same results at our excellent local comp but there is more to him than A* at A level and Oxbridge entry.

what damsel said. 'Spoon fed' kids come in with good grades and an expectation of more spoon feeding. Outcomes are higher from kids who worked in McDonalds, because unis don't spoon feed. (Ex uni admissions admin worker)

Alice, spoon feeding is not something that happens in all independent schools nor is it absent in many state schools.

Also, my DH will testify first hand that spoon feeding goes on a lot at some Oxford colleges, certainly the one he was at. The real world shocked him after the hand-holding and small tutorials of 4 or 5.

How can someone begin to compare the different experiences of private and state. IMO there is a vast difference between say Eton and a northern Cognita school. Some state grammars are full of very affluent able kids. Some privates take kids on scholarships and bursaries.

We are planning to send our DS to a private secondary because he has been struggling with undiagnosed dyslexia and we feel that small classes are the best way of giving him a chance to catch up. If he does well in the private school it will have still been a battle against adversity.

My best friend at school (comp) did astonishingly well as did her sister. Her parents were both secondary teachers (Maths and English) and were very hands on. Should we penalise people for this sort of opportunity too?

I fully agree that disadvantaged kids should be encouraged and supported but not at the expense of penalising another group. The difference between state and private is not always a clear cut divide.

I think it is only fair that universities should give advantage to state school children. It may not be possible to level the playfield between state and private completely but this would be a step in the right direction.

I'm sure that if my DD went to a local Indie her results would be a lot better than what she can achieve in the local comprehensive. The published A-level results speak for themselves. Therefore the end result would remain more or less the same really.

I'm not saying this is valid for all areas.

In terms of the free school meals it is important to remember that state schools with a lot of pupils entitled to free meals are already getting an advantage over those who have less children on free school meals.

Universities should be free to make judgements about individual candidates taken in the round. That should include being able to grant indulgence for slips in grades to any candidate for whom that seems appropriate to the admitting academics, no matter what that person's background.

The whole process has become too politicised. I have never met an academic who would actually prefer to teach the rich but thick. We should have more faith in their judgment.

I agree with happygarden. I'm sure my child would have better Oxbridge chances from a state school; but I much prefer the sort of education which he will get in the independent sector

The medical course I teach on has been reviewing the applicants and their subsequent success for the last few years and has moved towards this approach. The difference is already evident, attendance is higher as are participation and results. The only thing that has dipped is the number of children doing no work, not being able to motivate themselves and having mum/dad complain when they do badly. Using the Scottish results, someone with AAAAB from a deprived school, who has worked part time during school tends to do better throughout the course than someone with AAAAA from a private school. Anecdotally, they also seem to want to be there more than wanting the prestige of being at medical school. It isn't as if there are no private school students, but the ratio is starting to resemble to population more evenly.

It isn't based as simply as state/private but I would say that most of the factors that work against you now are more common in a private school. It can be things as simple as a formulaic personal statement (often almost identical to those coming from the same school) counting against you and having worked a part time job while you were studying being in your favour.

I wish there would be less jiggery-pokery trying to equalise the 18 year olds after they've had such different educational experiences and more energy put in to making sure that children are properly educated in the first place.

stickylittlefinnger I wish I could 'like' your post.

sticky absolutely.

Though so much is cultural; I attended a state of a school, really awful pit closed down soon after I left. I think of the kids there from my estate only two of us got GCSEs full stop (I am 38 so you know, a fair few eyars ago now....). Were we encouraged to even consider anyhting academic? nope. Not until I went back in my early thirties and took an Access anyway, just to get abck into the swing of things, at which point one RG university approached me on the suggestion of my Lecturers, another offered me a palce without interview.... and I took the far less competitive one becuase I felt so out of palce and just inherently wrong there.

I am doing my MA now though and ahve been told that they would support me for a PHd should i ever choose to follow that path so I got there eventually but damn it took a long time! Same experience for my sisters- one just got her defree, a first, at 36 studying PT and working FT becuase she was led to believe she had no ability, and the other has risen to the top of her field without a degree after sheer graft because she had to elave university for financial reasons (basically degree emant shift work so she could not get PT work, and parents couldn't help).

I've been taken out by other factors but whilst sister-with-a-first drives a Sabb and has six bed house so is definitely doing well, I still wonder what they might ahve been capable of if they'd had a decent education to start with.