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Outstanding Ofsted can still be a crap school!

72 replies

Doodlez · 24/09/2011 23:26

Tell me if this sounds right - Ofsted mark a school on about 27 different catagories and a school can achieve 'outstanding' status, even if, for example, the teaching catagory gets a crap mark?

So, when looking for schools for your children, the Ofsted overall finding is worth rat shit on it's own...

The school in special measures might have outstanding teachers but the temptation would be to dismiss it - yes?

OP posts:
CustardCake · 25/09/2011 18:32

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Hassled · 25/09/2011 18:44

It is NOT a pissing snapshot.

An Ofsted inspection is thorough and looks long and hard at achievement/progress for each cohort of pupils. It also looks at the quality of teaching and the quality of leadership, and pupil well-being.
This has a link to a PDF which shows the proposed new inspection criteria. Please read it before you make comments about how an Outstanding judgement is made. You will learn that there are many hoops to jump through - both under the old framework and the new.

AbigailS · 25/09/2011 19:34

OFSTED do listen to parental feedback, but they don?t accept it?s a true picture until it is researched. The OP is clearly concerned about safeguarding, but the inspectors will not automatically speak to her about it, so she can?t assume it wasn?t investigated.
OK ? to add to the debate; some anecdotes,

Parents complaining OFSTED didn?t take their comments seriously ? 17 parents complained that the school gives too much homework, but about the same number say they don?t give enough. OFSTED reports that parents raised homework in the questionnaire, but generally parents were very happy with the school and when giving feedback to the SLT and governor explain that they realise the school can?t keep all the people happy all the time.

Parent reports that they are not happy with the ?lunchbox police?. They don?t like the fact that their child is not supposed to bring peanut butter sandwiches, and when he did he had to eat them on a different table to his two friends. ? I needn?t explain why nuts including peanut butter are no-go foods and that this is made clear in the prospectus and various letters, and why he can?t sit with these particular friends on the days his mum decides it?s still OK to send peanut butter. OFSTED didn?t take the complain seriously.

Parent expressed safeguarding concerns regarding the appointment of a member of staff. A parent they have had an argument with in a personal capacity is appointed as a dinner lady. School has followed a rigorous recruitment process and she has a clear CRB check. OFSTED discuss the appointment with the personnel governor and head teacher, and look at all the interview paperwork, references and induction training records and conclude school has secure safeguarding.

Parent voices concerns about the standards at school and is concerned that children in her daughter?s class are not working at the level they should be. OFSTED look at assessment data. They talked to the teachers and looked at their continuous assessment records; they observed a series of lessons and conclude quality of teaching and learning was outstanding, that children achieve better than expected outcomes and they make better than expected progress in the year group. As a result OFSTED dismiss the parents concerns and do not mention it in the report (although in the summary % of comments it does record that the negative comment was received)

An outstanding school might not suit your child, but it doesn?t mean it is not outstanding. It is not just a snapshot. The inspection team have access to a range of long term information; they look at children?s work for the whole year; they have data reaching back several years relating to attainment, progress, percentage of SEN and FSM and attendance and any other records shared with the LA; they have access to the information from lesson observation made other professionals (HMI, LA, head teacher); they interview staff, school leaders, governors and sometimes parents and make judgements on the school?s ability to develop and improve. All the inspections I have been through and inspectors I have met are highly trained and quick, perceptive and knowledge people.

So, no, OFSTED is not the be all and end all, but to throw their reports out completely makes a mockery most parents expectation of external and independent professions making judgement to hold schools accountable and them providing reports to help parents make decisions about where to send their child. What I have found is that it is sometimes either sour grapes because someone has a personal compliant about the school for which they can?t get the answer they want or about the whole ranking system of schools. We need the reports to help make the decisions, as a parent you will never have the full picture. If you have such a major safeguarding concern report the school to the police or the child protection services; let them investigate.

noblegiraffe · 25/09/2011 20:37

Maybe I don't know what a rubbish school is like

I think that this is a big problem - there was a thread on MN about the Educating Essex programme that was on on Thursday. People shocked by the behaviour and attitudes of some of the pupils and saying 'is this what secondary schools are really like???'. But that programme is filmed in an outstanding school.

Behaviour in the school I teach at has been graded as outstanding. That doesn't mean that I haven't been sworn at or that there aren't fights or that lessons can't be completely disrupted or teachers brought to tears by horrible classes. But on the whole, behaviour isn't a problem and these incidents are isolated rather than the norm.

Outstanding doesn't mean perfect. And some parents have unrealistic expectations about schools these days.

quirrelquarrel · 25/09/2011 21:13

Outstanding means very special and rare. So how come there are about three outstanding schools where I live (I go to one, went to another and they're completely different in terms of standards- you'd expect the "outstanding range" to be fairly small) and none of them are particularly famous? Shouldn't outstanding mean getting all A*s rather than Bs? Not just gradeswise, I mean the very top levels in everything. It's silly to say that teaching quality is too hard to quantify. You find evidence of it in results but also by seeing if the kids can think for themselves, if they know something the textbook hasn't told them etc etc. It's not like that and that's what breeds complacency, which doesn't do us any favours whatsoever.

So students feel comfortable enough to be downright nasty to teachers and that's not a problem and that's an outstanding situation? Great, roll on the future.

I think it's unrealistic when you see what kids can be like these days, but not unrealistic when you look at what they should be like.

Hassled · 25/09/2011 21:19

Shouldn't outstanding mean getting all A*s rather than Bs?

No. Outstanding is about degrees of improvement, rather than results. It has a lot to do with having an intake in say, Y7, who are broadly below the national average and getting them above, or well above, the national average. That won't mean As. A school which has an intake that's already above national average actually has to work quite hard to show the improvement that Ofsted want to see - it's easy to get a load of A pupils if they're coming in well above average already.

Clary · 25/09/2011 21:39

I work in an Ofsted Outstanding school and I gotta say, all the students don't get A* at GCSE Hmm

Some of them will struggle to get many C grades tbh. But the area it is in is relatively deprived; some of the students are not well looked after, have an unsettled home life and many other problems. The school is outstanding because it takes all the problems on board and does the very best for the students. It's a great place to work btw and I wouldn't hesitate to send my DC there if we lived anywhere near.

AbigailS · 25/09/2011 21:46

Unlike waiting for exam results then giving the top 5% outstanding there are set criteria. If no schools in an area reach the criteria none are outstanding, but equally, if all of them do, then they are all outstanding.

noblegiraffe · 25/09/2011 21:46

So students feel comfortable enough to be downright nasty to teachers and that's not a problem and that's an outstanding situation?

These incidents will happen in any comprehensive school, it's how often, and how it's dealt with that makes the difference. The lad who swore at me got excluded for three days; in one of my PGCE placement schools teachers were being assaulted weekly and nothing much was done about it. That was a shit school.

AbigailS · 25/09/2011 21:48

Sorry my last post was in response to quirrelquarrel's comment about outstanding meaning special and rare.

quirrelquarrel · 26/09/2011 07:27

If bullying wasn't such a big problem then I would think it was a v. good idea that pastoral care be put less emphasis on. It gives students the idea that school is an all-round experience instead of a learning place, and that's partly where a lot of problems start. Instead we have places with assemblies and tutor groups and common rooms for the poor overstressed Y11s and people crying on their way to them. It's not like teachers don't see the bullies, either, they're not exactly shy about it.
I don't know, abroad it seems like school is taken so much more seriously than here. In the beginning, things are lax, but by the time they're 10/11/12, homework is heavy, they make choices, things have consequences etc. I helped out in a German school this summer with different ages and when they were being "creative/in a team" by English standards the teachers were telling them to calm down and be quiet. They weren't quashing their creativeness, they were getting on with a lesson, where over here it would just have been accepted and less work would have been done. When they got a 4 or a 5 instead of a 1 or 2 for homework, the teacher didn't tell them it didn't matter, never mind, they were told off and it was taken seriously. Despite all this horrible unfair strictness the kids wanted to go there, they liked lessons and the teachers and wanted to do well.

Btw, I didn't mean A* just in GCSE grades. Just representing a general measure of "outstandingness" in all areas. Not just improvement-wise. The jump from a level four in Y6 to a level seven in Y8 is great, but it probably demonstrated a jump in maturity, that something clicked in their mind or something like that rather than the teacher being so much better than the last one. I just have a problem with these discrepancies when it comes to behaviour. Yes, the sedate top sets pull the rest up (never mind the Y10 top set who don't know how to use quote marks), now what about taking note of the kid whose stuff is being thrown around in the middle of a lesson or talking to the kid who's scared to walk to school because he can see people from his class up ahead? The school still gets 'outstanding' overall. I find it v. hard to believe that this 5% is actually not 20% or so. Why aren't they hogging 5% of the top spaces in the league tables then? Because the league tables are about achievement and achievement is what should count because it's a school. Obviously "outstanding" is another term in national curriculum-land which takes a double meaning.

Sorry if this doesn't make sense, shouldn't post in the morning at this terrible hour...

noblegiraffe · 26/09/2011 08:07

You are making an awful number of unevidenced generalisations in your post, QQ, about English schools and what is accepted practice.

but it probably demonstrated a jump in maturity
Crikey, people are quick enough to slate the teachers when progress isn't made, but when it is made you're not going to give them any credit?

Because the league tables are about achievement
No, league tables are about attainment. If a kid works their socks off and gets a D grade that previously looked out of reach then that's an achievement. Under your criteria a comp in a grammar system where all the brightest are creamed off can't be an outstanding school because its results are lower - even though it might do the most amazing work with the kids that it has. And the grammar school who might not push the kids and lets them coast comes away with the plaudits because their A* group of kids naturally got top grades? How is that a fair way to judge a school?

And are you really of the opinion that apart from bullying, pastoral care is unimportant? School is an all-round experience. They spend a significant portion of their life there. And what goes on outside the classroom has an impact on the progress made within it.

TalkinPeace2 · 26/09/2011 16:44

It is ENTIRELY possible for a school to have lots of "outstanding characteristics" without any of them being to do with the teaching
and in fact have parts of teaching judged "satisfactory" with an overall judgement of "good" lifted by the fluffy things not the schooling

activate · 26/09/2011 16:48

OFSTED is pointless

I have seen outstanding schools with the worst behaviour amongst students

I have excellent schools been graded poorly because of paperwork not being in place

I ignore OFSTED where possible

carpwidow · 26/09/2011 22:08

You have been in a lot of school activate. Are you a teacher?

activate · 27/09/2011 20:03

Yes I work in an educational setting within state schools - though not a teacher and I have 4 children - 2 in secondary and 2 in primary

carpwidow · 27/09/2011 20:29

"I have excellent schools been graded poorly because of paperwork not being in place "

What sort of paperwork has not been in place? I'm really curious to get the view of someone in the know. Thanks activate :)

TalkinPeace2 · 27/09/2011 21:31

carp
try a new staff member CRB check a day late because Capita are useless

of a poorly repaired fence - that did not belong to the school - being used to mark it down

Jinx1906 · 29/09/2011 11:00

Imho Ofsted reports are not worth the paper they are written on. In DD primary school the teaching is weak, to the extend that a lot of parents are paying for a tutor. The HT even asks parents who their tutor is as if it is normal that everyone should have one. In addition to this the school has a serious problem with bullying and even more so with the way it is handled ( swept under the carpet). I know of a lot of parents who had written to OFSTED prior to the inspection and still the school managed to get outstanding.

pastoralacademia · 03/10/2011 19:52

Some keep saying that "children must be making progress..." You know fully well that can be fixed as well. this value added... BS is fixed

pastoralacademia · 03/10/2011 19:56

ACTIVATE. I agree with you totally.

rosycheeksandasmile · 03/10/2011 21:12

I think Ofsted is all about "playing the game" - there will be some - note not all - who know how to play this particular game of box ticking and will not be outstanding in any way, but be marked as such (similarly the other way around)

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