have been given the total heebiejeebies by a friend....can you all calm me down please

[Heathcliffscathy]

so, as bleeding heart liberals that we are, dh and i, having both been public school educated decided long ago that that wasn't what we wanted for any sprogs we had....we wanted them to be happy as opposed to successful whatever those terms mean, wanted a nurturing environment rather than an academic hothouse and wanted a broad social mix of potential friends rather than for them to be surrounded by the overpriviledged. now that we have a ds (2yrs) we still feel the same...sort of, but increasingly uneasy about it all...

basically, we've got the choice of a pretty crappy local state primary that is huge, or a v v good key stage results c of e school that we have to go to church to get him into (dh is c of e lapsed and i am catholic, lapsed but v spiritual and want to give my son the benefit as i see it of being brought up in a religion that he can later choose to reject iyswim).

we always thought there was no way we would even consider paying for his education until secondary and even then really look at the options before going down this route.

i had a conversation with a friend last night and she thinks we're mad. she said that if we had any doubt about the local state schools we should get him down for the private primarys in the area (there are numerous options) and that this was the way round to do it as then he had a chance of getting into a good grammar for secondary rather than playing catch up massively by being crammed for a couple of years before common entrance at home.

argh. the other thing i'm mega worried about is that i didn't fit in, either at the state primary i went to (was 'too posh') nor at the v good girls public school i went to for secondary (deffo not rich enough for there).

i want ds to fit in. i want his abilities or lack of to be maximised or compensated for. i want him to be safe and happy. i'm starting to worry that the only way to ensure this in london is to send him to a paying school.

i know i'll get totally slated for this. i'm slating myself in a way. but tbh, i'm in a flap and need talking down i think....

anyone?

It is possible to go to a private school or a state school and be both happy AND successful Similarly it is possible to go to either and be unhappy and unsuccessful. Also having worked at two very different state schools you can definitely get overpriveldged, spoilt and/or snobby parents and children at state schools too.

In your position I was concerned about the primary school I would look at ALL the schools locally - state and private and religious iones.

Have a look around, talk and interact with the teachers and pupils in the school (take DS too and see how they are with him - pretty important part IMO as it is him going to go there so they should want to interact with him).

Look at the league tables data and the OFSTED reports for them all.

If you can talk to some parents from the schools do that too.

Then make a decision, or two.

We have got a place for DD (3.5yo) at a local independent girl's school (having done the above and despite having a supposedly good state school nearby), but we did also apply to the state system too - in case.

If going private for primary were an option, we would definitely have put it in to our mix of possible choices - ds may not have ended up in a private school, but I gave up my principles about state vs private education long ago .

we are going for a local (inner london) state primary for ds. the one we'll probably put first hasn't got a fantstic reputation, but it's improving & has a new head. it only has 1 class per year (rare round here) & had a lovely feel when i looked round - lots of work on the walls, children concentrating on learning. however, we're being pragmatic, & if things don't work out will investigate private options. we've already discussed the fact we'll probably have to go private at 11+ if we're still living here.

it's so hard isn't it. i have to admit that laziness plays its part too - i'm really keen for the children to go to a local school that we can walk to & that their friends will all be from round here. we could theoretically apply to a jewish school with a good reputation, but it's at the other end of the borough & i really don't want to be driving around at 8am.

ho hum, good luck with the decision making process. i'm panicking too, but then ds is almost 4....

Haven't read all the thread but incase our experience may help you here it is.

My DS is in a large victorian state London school which services a deprived area.

A couple of years ago they were ranked in the top 300 in the country.

This year SATS have been poor and I was worried. What is happening I pondered. Spoke to one of the govenors who put my mind at rest.

DS is in YR1 but is about 2 years ahead in literacy and numeracy and is being stretched. His current teacher has sussed him out very quickly. Things I would never have thought she would have noticed she has.

I got involved in the PTA and got to know one of the govenors so feel I am involved in the school.

We have a secondary school near us that is very popular (2000 applicants for 200 places). Our primary school has a good track record in getting pupils into it. Last year 10 pupils out of 60 got places.

Overall i think it is a pretty good school and so far anyway has beenvery good at advancing my ds. I was worried before sending him there, I was worried about the big old victorian building but in reality they have sectioned it off in such a way as to make it ok.

Also in other countries class sizes can be on the big size and not cause a problem. My sister is a teacher in Ireland and teaches over 30 kids on her own with no Teaching Assistant and I believe this is the norm. Eduaction in Ireland is pretty good and there is very little resources, big class sizes and non existent facilities.

i say don't do anything until you see the big primary. schools sometimes have bad reputations unfairly.

I know a state school with 3 classes per year group - the vast majority of the time the children all read to the teacher once a week. Oh and it is in a 'deprived' area too.

fisil, will email you. i've got something in on pm of 13th atm but will try to move it and also try to locate the meetup thread! thank you!

And it is VERY early to panic, even by my standards
Take a look at local private primaries, put his name down if they feel right. Then, closer to the time go and see the other local schools. Remember a school can change a lot in two years, so don't think about seeing them now.

?

I moved out of London a few months ago, and to be honest I couldn't believe the obsession I saw with schooling. I went to a local comprehensive, was luckily quite clever and managed to do well, but I also feel very lucky to have learnt a bit about life and other walks of life. Some friends I have who went to public schools just have no concept of how others live, or what poverty really looks like. I don't think you can make an educated choice about how you will live your life without having seen ALL the options.

If you feel strongly enough about it, then go for the public school. But I do think from what you have said that this goes against your instincts. Your son will have ot learn to stand on his own somehow, and build his own confidence (you can nurture this), and only he can learn how to cope with fitting in or not - whether that be in the local school or the fee paying one.

I don't want to offend anyone saying the above, just my own humble perspective, and observation of how I found London people (my workmates etc).

Good luck with whatever you decide. I'm sure your obvious support and love for your little one will mean you make the right decision for you and him.

thanks potpourri...you're right.

ok have looked and looked at mistletoe and gdgk's posts and i'm assuming that mistletoe is shocked at.....me? the fact of me panicking so early? and that gdg's question mark is in response to her shock? but i could be wrong? what was the shock for? tell me tell...

Sophable - i imagine the CofE state primaries are StMa or StMi: we used to live quite close to StMi and I have heard v good things about it -lots of children from DS's nursery school went to it. Have heard mixed views re how easy or difficult it is to get into - one friend went religously (ho ho) to the relevant church, took Sunday school and was only wait listed, another acquaintance is non practising Catholic and got in without any problems. Our local Catholic one is OLV, which I believe is almost impossible to get into without extremely serious church attendance - has very very good results.

DS has just started at a small private school - PH. We are VERY pleased with it so far. Looked round a lot of the other local private ones and have mixed views, but some were on less than rigorous grounds! A couple I would avoid like the plague, but that was just a personal reaction.

HA! anchovy, knew it would be PH. the new head is good isn't she.

it is SMi. the big big draw for me is that it is literally 3 mins walk from us....that would be so lovely...

hohum.

the catchment school for us is WH. any reports?

New head is great, nursery had a fantastic OFSTED report last year and DS is loving it!

STMi is very good, I think. We used to live about 3 mins walk away as well! Best Friend had her daughter there before they moved, and lots of children from our area went there. DS's best friend from nursery school is there and I believe parents have no religious affiliation, but live v.v close. Think you will get in if you go regularly to the local church, but you do have to get the priest to sign a letter saying you are a regular attender, so you not only have to go but also have to be seen to be going. We have no CofE links at all, so it was never really an option for us. It does apparently keep about 10% of its places for those who are regular attenders in their (other) faiths, but again priest equivalent letter is I think required.

Big question I think is where you can go on from there for secondary. Friends with a 10 year old have high hopes for the new StC (I think its called) nearby - and lucky you if it turns out to be good, because that must be very close to you as well. Its a bit of a mystery in this area why there are pretty good state primaries but it goes downhill a bit thereafter.

Don't know anything about WH, but I think results are nowhere near as good as StMi

A couple more random thoughts...

I wouldn't be put off by the overall size of the school; I have a friend with a dd in Y5 at a massive (and v. popular) school in Wandsworth, and they're very happy with it. My children's school is one form entry and although it has the great advantage of cosiness when they're tiny, it becomes a disadvantage when they get older and there is no scope for changing the group dynamics by mixing the children from parallel classes. In my dd1's Y6 class her group of girls have been a clique since they were in nappies and frankly they're now sick of the sight of each other to the extent that they can't even be bothered to squabble any more.

wrt church schools in inner London, it's worth pointing out that they are so oversubscribed that the children who get in tend to come from families who are all quite heavily involved in parish life. Which is great if you're happy to get into that the children seee the same people at church and at school, the families tend to know each other socially etc. but not so good if you want to stay at one remove as your child may feel left out. Being close to the school helps as well if the children all live near the school it's easier to get into spontaneous arrangements for them to go to each other's houses, and as they get older they appreciate having the freedom to walk to school by themselves. Both those are things I would miss if we send dd2 to the private school.

But in the end there are shortcomings to both state and private, and it's a question of deciding which ones matter to you and which will best meet your child's needs. In the state sector it's likely you will need to make up academic shortfalls, and supply extracurricular activities under your own steam. In the private sector I would be concerned to make sure that my child was aware that not everybody has the same lifestyle and standards as we do, didn't feel that life owed them a living and understood the difference between self-motivation and motivation through external pressure from school/parents.

And keep reminding yourself that, whatever decisions you make, the potential for getting obsessive about your child's education is almost limitless. It helps to try and distinguish between a legitimate concern and parental paranoia. Despite the hype surrounding popular schools we were offered last-minute places at various popular state and private schools at different stages. So if your initial choice doesn't turn out how you hoped, other options will still be open to you.

i apologise if this had already been said, far too many replies to read at this time of night!!!
My thoughts: If the school with heaps of kids in the class had a great ethos, positive (that doesnt mean flawless) ofsted report and when you visited had a good feeling then go for that, if the fee paying school had all of the above , go for that. Im a mum, im on the pta, im also in my 3rd year of a teaching degree, i dont nearly consider myself an expert but i feel that we are dealing with children, not mini einsteins and im afraid im still of the 'old skool' feeling that to be able to learn, you need to feel safe and have fun. We are women and there is a lot to be said for instinct. I honestly wouldnt worry, visit all the preferences you have (with your children) and you will make the right decision.

Frogs - I love your posts - so eloquent, well-informed, and amusing too.

Sophable, I've nothing to add; I think it's all been said. It's a very interesting thread.

Just one thing to add, I went to a 'bog-standard' typical inner-city primary till I was 10, then moved for my final primary year (cos we moved house) to a massively over-subscribed very middle-class primary (you know the type where the catchment area about 2 square inches and people try and bribe the headteacher to get in).
To be perfectly honest I was way ahead of the rest of the class in reading, maths and science, and I couldn't see any difference in any other aspects..
A lot of what makes a school popular and over-subscribed is hype to be perfectly frank.

Oh and I went to a pretty crap secondary school -- got straight a's at gcse and a level. Like someone said earlier if you are going to shine, you will do it anywhere.

(Sorry if this comes across as arrogant, not meaning to show off or anything...)

fantastic advice on here, thanks all of you. feel totally calm and zen like now and also much more positive about the nearest primary thanks to fisil...thank you darling!

Bless, Sophable

Remember it only gets worse

Haven't read all this thread as am supposed to be working (oops) so someone might have already said this, but chances of being able to go and visit the state schools in the near future may be limited, if even available at all. We found that not one would allow us to visit until the autumn term preceeding the school year he actually started in. Suppose it's because:
a) They just don't have the time to show around thousands of prospective parents of toddlers, who may well have moved out of the borough by the time their child nears school age.
b) They aren't taking you down for £100 or there abouts for just putting your child's name on a list, so there is no financial incentive.
Can see their logic and understand their reasoning. However, considering you have to put your child's name down at conception for most of the private schools around here, I imagine there must be quite a few parents who would like to be able to view all the options at an early stage. Instead, having been denied that choice, they end up shelling out for various private waiting lists because they have no idea what the state can offer them - and won't find out until a time where they will be lucky to get on the waiting list for the waiting list for the waiting list for the private school that may (or may not)turn out to be a better choice than the state option.

Does that make sense?

preceding, even.

norwegianfir, you are absolutely right...makes things a bit harder, or a bit more expensive tbh.