have been given the total heebiejeebies by a friend....can you all calm me down please

[Heathcliffscathy]

so, as bleeding heart liberals that we are, dh and i, having both been public school educated decided long ago that that wasn't what we wanted for any sprogs we had....we wanted them to be happy as opposed to successful whatever those terms mean, wanted a nurturing environment rather than an academic hothouse and wanted a broad social mix of potential friends rather than for them to be surrounded by the overpriviledged. now that we have a ds (2yrs) we still feel the same...sort of, but increasingly uneasy about it all...

basically, we've got the choice of a pretty crappy local state primary that is huge, or a v v good key stage results c of e school that we have to go to church to get him into (dh is c of e lapsed and i am catholic, lapsed but v spiritual and want to give my son the benefit as i see it of being brought up in a religion that he can later choose to reject iyswim).

we always thought there was no way we would even consider paying for his education until secondary and even then really look at the options before going down this route.

i had a conversation with a friend last night and she thinks we're mad. she said that if we had any doubt about the local state schools we should get him down for the private primarys in the area (there are numerous options) and that this was the way round to do it as then he had a chance of getting into a good grammar for secondary rather than playing catch up massively by being crammed for a couple of years before common entrance at home.

argh. the other thing i'm mega worried about is that i didn't fit in, either at the state primary i went to (was 'too posh') nor at the v good girls public school i went to for secondary (deffo not rich enough for there).

i want ds to fit in. i want his abilities or lack of to be maximised or compensated for. i want him to be safe and happy. i'm starting to worry that the only way to ensure this in london is to send him to a paying school.

i know i'll get totally slated for this. i'm slating myself in a way. but tbh, i'm in a flap and need talking down i think....

anyone?

f*ck off cod

aloha, thanks for not going completely apesh*t at me re church school thing

enid i'm hearing that

ok. feeling much calmer. she really did scare the living crap out of me and has an 11 year old son so felt like she 'knew what she was talking about' type thing

That's true - friends of mine have theirs in state RC school for infants but are planning to move them to private from 7.

anchovy which one???? initials please i'll do the rest!

pph thanks too. feeling much less guilty about being worried about this too, which helps.

PPH - depends on child I'd say. Ds1 is not in the least bit intimidated in his class of 30. Granted he probably doesn't get the same amount of 1 to 1 attention but as a parent I'm happy to supplement his learning anyway. We practice his reading every single night and he's speeding along.

Doesn't always follow that children from private primary schools are ultimately brigher or more successful than those at state ones.

glitterygook - your 4yo could find noone he connects with in a class of 12???
mine are obviously much less fussy, they get on with everyone in their classes, a couple are more "special" friends but they all seem to like everyone at that age....

hmmm

Okaaaaay. Actually, you're probably just as well off facing this conundrum now, so you've at least thought of the options beforehand.

In the first place, you need to bear in mind that no mere school, whether private or state, is ever going to appreciate fully the unique talents and wonderfulness of your own child.

Second thing is that a mixed inner-London primary school (you know the kind of thing a good smattering of labour-voting professional parents balancing out the kids from the rough estates) are lower on peer-pressure than many private schools. The kids see the enormous variety in their classes and learn quite quickly to work out for themselves where they stand on various topics. For my children (v. different characters) it's been a good place to learn the confidence to be themselves. A good primary school, even in London, should not be a jungle if you have reason to be worried about your child's physical safety then it's not a good primary school.

However (and there is a big however) the priorities of many primary schools is to make a good showing in the league tables. This means getting as many children as they can to Level 2 in Y2 and Level 4 in Y6. These are not demanding targets for a bright child, and there is a tendency for the higher-achieving children to be left to their own devices, while endless resources are poured into the illiterate 10yo. It would be a rare primary school that would go the extra mile to ensure that a child of average or above-average ability achieves their potential, so you need to accept that if you go that route you will need to put in extra effort and/or expense to compensate for the school's shortcomings (eg. extra tutoring, teaching him joined-up writing, Kumon maths, music lessons, whatever). If you want him to be in a position to compete with privately-educated children at 11, you will definitely need extra tutoring for a good couple of years. You may also encounter problems with complaints of boredom -- a little bit doesn't matter, a lot probably does.

I think you need to calm down and accept that there are good and bad schools in both sectors; there are also good schools in both sectors that you wouldn't necessarily want to send your child to. This is not the place for politics it's a question of meeting your own child's needs in the way you think is best. Go to look at a few schools in both sectors, to get a feel for what you do and don't like. Check out which private heads are pushy so-and-sos, and which primary schools feel a bit Lord of the Flies. Look at some Year 3 exercise books and see if they can write decent prose with acceptable (joined) handwriting. Watch out in all schools for the headteacher showing off the work of the class genius ask to see work from each end of the ability range. Ask how they get a balance between encouraging children to fulfil their potential and pressurising them, or how they deal with children who don't fit in. Once you've got the feel for what you do and don't like, pay the dosh and put his name down. Some schools will sneer at you if your child is over 6 weeks old this may be telling you something in itself. Then when the time comes to make a decision (and part with serious cash in the private sector) you can have another look round. By then you'll have a better idea of what you're looking for and what your child's needs will be also as your child is closer to school age you can judge what you see more usefully.

As an afterthought, few primary schools are truly terrible at infant stage, and most private schools will have an intake at 7, even if it isn't a main point of entry. For the record, my older two are both at a church primary school, but have now put my youngest's name down for a private school as well, as I'm not sure I've got the energy to do state all over again.

glitter i don't care about bright or success. of course ds is already a genius and 'success' can cause as much unhappiness as anything if only measured in status/financial terms

i never said that private= brighter or more successful. I was talking about being happy and for me, at that age, that is all about being comfortable and secure in your surroundings and having your individual needs identified and dealt with. which I'm ALSO not saying is impossible in a class of 30, but I AM saying is easier and more likely to happen in a class of 12.

i never said that private= brighter or more successful. I was talking about being happy and for me, at that age, that is all about being comfortable and secure in your surroundings and having your individual needs identified and dealt with. which I'm ALSO not saying is impossible in a class of 30, but I AM saying is easier and more likely to happen in a class of 12.

frogs thank you so much...what a lovely thing for you to take the time for so much consideration....

agree absolutely except that have been given short shrift by schools in both sectors about really being able to talk to the head and see everything i want to....hmmmm

fwiw pph i agree re class size, altho i take the point that huge school size doesn't necessarily mean huge class size.

tbh i've looked online at a so called 'amazing' private co-ed, and their classes were minimum 24 from when they are tiny!!!!

No, not my 4 yr old - I was hypothesising about finding someone to connect with in class of 12 vs 30.

It's not just the class size, though -- it's the number of adults working with that class. So a class of 30 with a teacher + a nursery assistant is better than a class of 24 with just a teacher. Nursery class at my children's school had teacher + 2 full-time nursery nurses; Reception had teacher + 1 nursery nurse, Y1 had teacher + part-time TA.

Worth asking head whether infant classes have a fulltime assistant (for the whole class, not support staff for particular kids with problems). Then ask the teacher the same question. Ask the assistant, too, and the children as well, if you can get away with it. There's a lot of fiddling the books and class-hopping in state primaries. In a private school you should expect a teacher and an assistant in infant classes even if the classes are much smaller. Also ask how often the teacher hears each child read. Then ask the kids. Ask how often the reading books are changed. Twice a week or less is not unusual in primary schools, and it's also not unusual for a high-achieving child never to be heard to read by the teacher. Not that the school will admit to that, of course, but it happens.

sophable - would it be worth not trying to think of it as a state/private thing, and just visiting ALL the primaries in the area both state and private, and just going on the vibe and which you think would suit ds best?

I agree with others who have said schools vary widely in philosophy and atmosphere whether they are state or private - best to go in with an open mind, ignore your friend and go with your gut feeling on what is best for ds

I'm with Frogs, Aloha etc. And with you when you gave yourself that little pep talk a few posts down .

Go and see all the schools. Stop angsting about the religious school - if you ARE genuinely religious, then go for it if it is a lovely school - you are paying for it through your taxes, anyway!

And you can't really lose, because if you opt for state, and it is disatrous, you have an option to move.....

I went to the parents meeting of the state reception class Ds will attend in january. It was so friendly, all the parents chatting to each other, a more representative mix of inner-city S London you couldn't hope to see, teacher, TA and Head all setting out their vision for the happiness and achievement of the kids, glorious work all around us on the walls, fabulous facilities, books etc, and I was SO RELIEVED that there is no uniform and that the class teacher was begging parents to send kids to school in un-precious clothes because she felt so upset when children felt inhibited for fear of ruining their clothes! The Head has already learned the names of the kids coming in and recognises parents fromdropping off their enrollment forms. Fruit available freely at all times...I am SO pleased I am not having to cope with ironing a shirt for a private school! It's almost a deciding factor for me! (well, cost is the ultimate barrier for us, but even if it wasn't the ironing would be!!)

Yes, I am v lucky, this IS Lambeth, and this is not one of the crappier schools - BUT look at the ones round you - you might be v surprised. State schools do turn out many happy, fulfilled well-educated children.

You're supposed to iron shirts and blouses for private schools? Knew I was going wrong somewhere

Seriously DD's school from 3-7 has polo neck sweaters for girls and polo shirts for boys, with the option of shirts/blouses.

I find getting them out of the dryer and hanging them up immediately works just find

haven't read the thread but all I can say is don't panic

you really need to visit all the schools .. maybe the crappy local primary has a bad rep? it could be fab, maybe the c of e school would be perfect especially if you are spiritual anyway .. how are you going to know until you go and visit

private education is a huge step especially at primary age

IMHO you should look for a school that encourages the joy of learning .. not one that necessarily has the best SATs .. I would far prefer my children to be happy and understand how to absorob new stuff than judged on a term's cramming

you don't know until you go on visits

and once you make up your mind ... ahhh the blessed relief

personally I love uniform (but I seem to be in a minority)

Sophable, if the registration fees aren't ridiculous I would look round at the most likely of the private schools and see whether it is worth registering - as I think pph said, at least you are keeping your options open.

This is what we did for ds1, in part because although we have a number of very good state primary schools in the area, they are all over subscribed and we're not on the doorstep of any of them. When it came to it we got accepted by our first 2 choice state schools and 3 private schools, but given ds1 was then 4 we had a better idea of which environment suited him. The choice ended up between a private prep with a fair amount of structure (he's already playing rugby!) or a beacon status state school which is very child-centred, and for example they don't necessarily push reading at all in the reception year (but the children are very happy, and the SATS results are good). As it happen both have a similar adult:child ratio (the state school has about 3 TAs per class). When we looked at it again we concluded that ds1 would suit the preprep more, and so far he is flourishing in it, though of course he would probably be enjoying the other school too.

In terms of class etc, whilst there are one of two very wealthy families, most of the parents are those who have been paying out huge childcare bills for the first 4-5 years and therefore are just continuing this expense at this stage (ie normal middle-class, first generation of university graduates etc).

FWIW we decided not to defer to entry at 7 as this would be via an assessment, and I didn't want to have to go down the coaching route that young. In fact one of the decisions that swayed us towards prep route was that we wouldn't have to coach for 11+ at all (hopefully), as there is sufficient peer presure to get ds1 focused at 5that stage. My friends who are having their state-educated sons coached are finding it difficult as they are the only boys in their class going for 11+ (and in fact they would prefer to flunk the 11+ and be with their friends).

Certainly if you put your name down on a few waiting lists now, you can forget about the topic until the year before he starts! You might even decide a private school is the hapiest place for ds.

sophable, we visited state and private before making a decision. In the end it was the Private we opted for as the class sizes were smaller and it's just a great School.
I also thought that if we get her in the nursery then we can see how she gets on before comitting to Reception IYSWIM. Thankfully she did great and loves it there, (well as much as she loves School at all). She is painfully shy and i am glad she's in a class of 12 rather than 30.
I think we all agonise over this as it's a massive decision, almost like letting go+

My younger brother went to a state school (in sussex not london)and he is now the student president at Durham Uni, I've not done too badly for myself either having been state educated. I would say do what you feel comfortable with to begin with and then if your child appears to be unhappy you can change your decision.

I was like you a few years ago,Sophable,i was so concerned about my Ds going to the crappy state school,not just for academic reasons but mainly cos i thought he would be so miserable-he is quite old fashioned,sensitive,clever blah blah,BUT I was wrong.There are plenty of clever kids doing well and lots of them really like my son!!He loves his school and is doing beteter than friends at schools with wonderful reputations including independant ones)My sons school is full of different abilities etc mixing well and caring for each other ,and i even know big children ,who,shock horror ,have got into uni (including cam/ox)afetr attending secondaries which i said i would rather home ed than send my child to.

sophable, I haven't read the other replies but would say, as others probably have, that you will have to visit the schools and you will hopefully get a feel for where he would be happiest.

Even if you want him to be happy and have a diverse group of friends, there is no reason why he can't have this and go to fee-paying school.

I would love to send dss private, mainly for the smaller class sizes and (I'm not pushy, honest) but I think ds1 is advanced for his age and I want him to be stimulated and challenged. Of course he could get this is a good state school but the good ones round here are very over-subcscribed - anyway that's a different story.

I certainly don't think you should be slated - by yourself or anyone else - if you think that fee-paying is better for your child. We all have to do the best we can for our kids, or we are letting them down. Don't feel guilty that you want him to be happy.

Sophable - we are also looking right now. I'm afraid that we would never even consider a private school. However, we have the "choice" between a "crappy" local state school and a "fantastic" local C of E school. We looked yesterday round the "crappy" one, and next week we will look round the "fantastic" one. Let's just say that the crappy one didn't live down to its reputation. It was lovely, ds1 hasn't shut up about it ever since. I'm only going to the other one next week to confirm my decision for the local one.

You know that I am a teaching and learning consultant in your borough. If you let me know the names I can get the real, impartial truth for you! So either post here or email me.

PS meet up on 13th December in the afternoon - can you come?