Judge tells teacher sex offender: 'I don't criticise you for being attracted to children'

[Feenie]

Here

Where do they get these people???

?I don't criticise you for being a teacher who's attracted to children. Many teachers are but they keep their urges under control both when it comes to children and when it comes to images of children."

Wtf?

I find the comparison deeply offensive, and wholly irrelevant.

That's exactly why I don't understand about the anger towards the comment. No one equated homosexuality with pedophilia. Everyone agrees that pedophilia is abhorrent and should be dealt with harshly, whereas most people here probably think it's just fine to be gay. It was just an example used, probably because historically homosexuality has been our society's greatest sexual taboo so it's an easy parallel to make, although thankfully we've moved on from that. I agree that there is probably some sensitivity due to homosexuality being confused with pedophilia, but I don't like the idea that we have to tiptoe around homosexuality and must never mention it in the same sentence as anything unpleasant.

X-post. Well we've established that Feenie definitely finds the comparison irrelevant and offensive. End of that then.

Feenie isn't the only one perhaps because we have to deal with the child injured when the thoughts become actions.

I find the comparison offensive, because it is irrelevant and because it is dangerous. It is only very recently that homosexuality became 'acceptable' and violence and prejudice still exist on a frightening scale - including the false claim that gay men are more likely to be paedophiles, which is deeply unfair as it is often supported by those organisations that are still hiding paedophiles from the law.

Xenia should have found a better analogy. The fact that she reached for homosexuality is disturbing.

I think it's very very important we can discuss these things. My point is about what is objectively right and wrong at particular times and in certain cultures.

We can also debate what is objectively and morally good and true in all cultures. I find it pernious that any woman is treated worse than a man anywhere even if some woman tells me that they adore to be in that position as women in saudi or that the local women wish female circumcism to be imposed. In other words i believe you can have objective moral wrongs. I would class sexual abuse of pre pubertal children in that category and have not suggested otherwise on this thread.

I also believe homosexuality is fine too and not objective or morally wrong.

Lots of people feel gay from age 5 or younger. Plenty of people seem born with their sexuality. I am sure a lot of people who are sexually attracted to chidlren and that will include some mumsnet posters but they will not admit it of course felt they have always been like that. My point was simply that some sexualities seem to be innate.

I hate the way women in particular have this - hang em all - knee jerk reaction to anything related to sex and chidlren (although they are more than happy to dress their 5 year olds as happy little hookers in nail varnish and frilly pink skirts of course) without any desire ever to look into why people are sexually attracted to children. Surely it's only by looking at the cause that we even begin to deal with the issues.

I have never anywhere ever suggested gay people are attracted to children. I said homosexuality is a sexualty people often exoperience when they are young and many will say they feel born with that just as many who are sexually attracted to children (which let us not forget is not illegal and is not an offence - it is only the action which is the offence - thus I could get aroused by goats and sit here all day thinking about sex with goats and that is not illegal thankfully (not that I am) but if I took a goat and were male and penetrated it I would breach the Sexual Offences Act as indeed I would if I were into sex with corpses. Sex with dead goats is not illegal.

All I am saying is how awful it must be if you had the luck of the draw to find that your underlying sexuality were an attraction to pre-pubescent children.

I understand your point. I'm not interested, however, in how 'awful it must be', and have zero sympathy, tbh.

It's still got absolutely NOTHING to do with homosexuality. Many people experience any kind of sexual urges when they are young - it's ridiculous and offensive to then compare homosexual urges in childhood with paedophilic ones. Why not just say sexual feelings to make your point? It was unnecessary.

Xenia, please just stop making comparisons between homosexuality and paedophilia. You can discuss whether paedophilia is a life-long condition without bringing paedophilia into it - if you need a comparison, why not use heterosexuality?

You seem to assume that paedophilia is an innate sexual preference on a par with heterosexuality. I'm not sure that is the case. Any more than necrophilia is. If you can find proper scientific research that discusses the issue, that might be interesting.

Given it occurs in all cultures and always has whether the culture encourages adult/child sex or virtually kills you for doing it, that does suggest to me it's likely to be genetic. Many people with sexual interests in children wish they didn't. They are not choosing it for a bit of fun. It is a lifelong curse for them.

We used to think homosexuality came about because of how your mother treated you. Now we know it is just how some people are born rather than made. I would expect it would be the same with sexual interest in children. It may also be caused by exposure in the womb to hormones too. I accept you could say the same for those who are heterosexual and indeed asexual.

Anyway I am sure we all have a common aim - to ensure those who hurt children are stopped and to get right to the bottom of the cause and stop it even if that means gene therapy of some kind or working out just after our babies are born if they have a h igh likelihood of being abusers so we can do what is needed to stop that happening. As most of those abused abuse (whether caused by genes or not) then obviously watching for how those who were abused then live their lives will also presumably help.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biology_and_sexual_orientation

If we could look at the bigger picture for a moment, Feenie, why do you have zero sympathy?

Murder occurs in all cultures, and always has - does that mean it's likely to be genetic?

Why do I have zero sympathy for paedophiles? Because my head and my heart are kept far too busy picking up the pieces for the children they damage. I have no sympathy left after that.

Sorry, I understood you to say you had zero tolerance for people who feel attracted to children.

My mistake.

I have zero sympathy for anyone who sexually abuses a child, exploits themn sexually or otherwise harms them for the purposes of their own sexual satisfaction.

And because the man thing is to protect children, surely we need to find out how paedophilia occurs - whether or not it is nature or nurture - with a view to working out how to improve the chances of anyone who has those feelings of attraction never hurting or harming a child, and minimising the chances of people growing up with a sexual attraction to children.

Xenia - there is so much anecdotal evidence that at least some cases of sexual abuse seem to be routed in the perpertrators own experience (Disclaimer:totally differnt to assuming that abuse survivors are a risk), but I have never heard of someone's sexuality in terms of men/women being based in ill-doing, so whilst I know you were saying..what you were saying, I'm not sure I agree with you.

Whilst agreeing with the general thrust of Xenia's argument, I must take issue with her statement that "most of those abused abuse". It may be true that most abusers have been abused - it is certainly cited as part of their defence at trial, but one cannot extrapolate from that to say that the majority of those who have been abused will in turn become abusers, which is patently not true.

Similarly Winky Wonka said "If you know anything about sex offenders including peadophiles, they almost always progress to further disturbing behaviour that is illegal." It is probably true that peadophiles, (and rapists) start by having bad thoughts, viewing pornography, etc. and progress to much worse, but one cannot extrapolate from that to say that everyone who has ever had a raunchy dream or watched porn (i.e. nearly all of us) will go on to commit sex crimes.

Gosh yes, it may equally be caused by something in their childhood. We have hardly begun to do proper research into any of this. I am just saying it's urgent and important to look into the causes and do something about it and also for all of us to imagine how difficult it must be if our sexual interest were in children not in anything more conventionally acceptable. I don't really think there's much disagreement on this thread at all.

I don't kn ow the statistics of how many children under 10 who are sexually abused go on to abuse their own children. I think many of those who abuse were abused but I would imagine plenty do not. It certanily means if you're get ting to know a potential husband or wife you should be asking about things like that though so you can consider it and take decisions before you decide to commit your life to them.

My guess would be that statistics for adults sexually abusing children have never really changed whether the culture is against or for it. Victorian London had child brothels and we all know what the ancient Greeks got up to. It seems very strange to most of us who don't have those urges that anyone would be satisfied that way. It is the pubertal signs that attract most of us to the opposite sex and in evolutionary terms it is hardly going to help populate the planet. So why would so many in so many cultures find children sexually attractive? It's either going to be genes or environment or exposure to hormones in the womb or something or even a mixture or different reasons for different people.

I don't kn ow the statistics of how many children under 10 who are sexually abused go on to abuse their own children. I think many of those who abuse were abused but I would imagine plenty do not. It certanily means if you're get ting to know a potential husband or wife you should be asking about things like that though so you can consider it and take decisions before you decide to commit your life to them

Xenia I'm curious - do you think that by treating somebody as if they are a potential abuser because of their abuse will make it harder for them to lead normal lives where otherwise they would?

Yes I do think abuse can and does have a profound effect on people but surely being treated as a potential abused by 'normal' people is worse than coming to terms with the actions of a sick individual.

Also will probably make it harder for victims to speak out if they think they will not be able to get married or have a family - a normal life - because people will treat them as a potential abuser making it easier for abusers to get away with it and abuse more children.

It just seems a bit like further abusing the abused and with the number of photos found - I think about 2500 so lets say 1000 different children who if most (say 600 went on to be abusers) rates of child abuse would increase substantially.