Changes to holidays - debate on woman's hour

[fivecandles]

Apparently Nottingham LEA is piloting a change to school holidays such that the long summer holiday is reduced to 4 weeks but the half-terms become 2 weeks long so no time lost in total, just redistributed. I think it's a really good idea for all the reasons given on the programme and I'm a teacher. Anyone else got thoughts?

[wheresthepimms]

snowwoman you are missing fivecandles point we can all do in 4 weeks what we would do in 6 weeks, because we don't do anything worthwhile with our children because we are all on here moaning at her

Sorry fivecandles but you cannot accept that people may have different views to you and that maybe there are other factors in why deprived children go backwards over the holidays. As for accidents increase over the holidays, when kids are off school they will have accidents (they are not sat at a desk being safe) so if you redistribute the holidays then all you will do is redistribute the accidents, probably end up with more if you are letting kids out during bleak winter periods when light is low

[fivecandles]

It's funny how attached people are to the agrarian timetable.

We all agree that holiday time and down time is important. We all agree that the sort of stuff kids do on holiday even if it's nothing can be valuable but I think a key point is why should it all be at once? The autumn term is a killer and many people including teachers would find it more useful to have a meaningful break of 2 weeks to recuperate then. It's very strange to expect kids to be able to adjust from full-on learning to full-on not learnign for 6 weeks and back again.

The thing about the weather is just daft. On that basis you'll be arguing to shorten the xmas holiday and ban the other half-term holidays altogether.

Once again, you would still have 4 WHOLE WEEKS in summer. It really would be a minority of families that couldn't fit in all the things they need to do in that time (and the additional time in the half-terms) every year. DIY doesn't just need doing in summer, Jabed. We find it hard to even get round and visit family in the short half-terms but if these were 2 weeks long, it would be much easier to make these holidays meaningful.

The other thing that's really odd is the way people dismiss the impact on kids as somebody else's problem. Somebody mentioned something about bussing those poor kids into summer camps.

Firstly, ALL Kids suffer learning loss over the summer - not just poor kids. And Snowwoman, interestingly it's more marked in maths than reading since it's much less likely that kids will practise their maths skills over the holidays than their reading so a visit to the library isn't going to do much to help that (even if you had parents willing and able to do this). Yes, this is more marked amongst kids from the poorest backgrounds but it amazes me that some of you feel that if it's somebody else'se kids then it's not for you to worry about. As a society we all suffer when kids are not learnign effectively. If these kids are unsupervised and turn to vandalism and petty crime then it becomes a social problem, likewise if the kids fall so far behind that they can't pass exams and get jobs they become a burden to society.

[fivecandles]

But actually it's laughable to argue that even all the middle class kids are using every day of the 6 weeks in valuable ways. I think it's a concern that some of my dcs' well-to-do friends are left entirely in their ailing grandparents' care over the holiday and others are left entirely with the nanny even if not as much as a conceern as those kids who are left entirely unsupervised and I had to speak to some kids regularly who used to use their time to climb over the barbed wire and onto the very unstable rooves of the garages near my house last summer.


I think there can be few parents as lucky as dp and I in terms of being placed to care for their kids over summer in that we're both teachers so both off for 6 weeks with our kids but I know that it's too long for our dcs. DC1 is very bright and gets fidgety. She needs challenging because her brain is so sponge like but she's feisty and won't be taught by us. But dc2 struggles academcially and needs regular short practise with maths and writing which she doesn't get enough of over summer. Now, if that's what it's like for our kids what about the parents who cannot spend the time with their kids because of work or other issues?

[wheresthepimms]

but why do you think that they will be supervised in a shorter holiday? the whole point is the social aspect needs to be looked at by redistributing the holidays the social issues don't go away we will just have vandalism all year round rather than in the long summer break.

As previously stated, we can't all take holiday in a 4 week period, more likely in a 6 weeks period but if you change to a 4 week period there will be more teaching time lost to holidays during school time, which is way more disruptive and can lead to children completely not getting a core element of a subject

If it is someone else's kids then it is someone else's problem in my view as a change in school term times will not change the social attitudes of the children or their parents. The lack of parenting is what needs to be addressed not the length of holidays

[fivecandles]

www.summerlearning.org/resource/collection/CB94AEC5-9C97-496F-B230-1BECDFC2DF8B/Research_Brief_04_-_Cooper.pdf

'At best, students showed little or no academic growth
over summer. At worst, students lost one to three months
of learning.
? Summer loss was somewhat greater in math than reading.
? Summer loss was greatest in math computation and spelling.
? For disadvantaged students, reading scores were
disproportionately affected and the achievement gap
between rich and poor widened.'

[fivecandles]

Nodbody is arguing that changes to holidays would solve all the world's problems but it WOULD very clearly help to reduce the learning loss that takes place over the long 6 week holiday and mean kids are more prepared to get back into the swing of things in September. It would also mean kids spend less time unsupervised in one go. Given those things, it does seem odd that people wouldn't even consider trialling it.

Now, if you have personal reasons why you want to keep a 6 week holiday that's fine and I respect that but I do not think you should say that it should continue that way just because you like it and ignore the EVIDENCED that says it's actually not academcially and socially helpful for any kids to have such a long break in one go.

[fivecandles]

'Summer learning loss is the loss in academic skills and knowledge over the course of summer vacation. The loss in learning varies across grade level, subject matter, and family income. A common finding across numerous studies is that on average, students score lower on standardized tests at the end of the summer than they do at the beginning of summer (on the same test). Summer loss for all students is estimated to be equal to about 1 month (Cooper 1996), but this varies across subject matter:

Mathematics - 2.6 months of grade-level equivalency loss
Reading- Varies across SES. Low income students generally lose about 2 months of reading achievement. Middle income students experience slight gains in reading performances.
For over a century, scholars have recognized that summer vacation is a period when students? rate of academic development declines relative to the school year. All children lose academic skills during the summer months, and family socioeconomic status (SES) is highly correlated to the level of academic growth or decline in the summer months. Two-thirds of the academic achievement gap in reading and language found among high school students has been explained through the learning loss that occurs during the summer months of the primary school years.[1]'
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Summer_learning_loss

[fivecandles]

wheresthepimms, the point is that 6 weeks of not being supervised is potentially much more damaging than shorter blocks.

I know I would feel that myself as a parent. It worry me much more to think of my kids being neither with me nor at school for that lenght of time than having more regular but shorter breaks.

[wheresthepimms]

everybody with an ounce of sense knows that you can make these studies show what you want. You cannot factor out the social aspects, how much time these children spent alone, with parents, involved in academic activities so really they cannot be relied upon. Without dealing with the social aspects you will achieve nothing by changing the term times. Sorry but there will always be a gap between rich and poor in general terms as the rich kids parents can spend more and always will be able to. Poor kids do sometimes do well and usually when a parent pushes them to succeed. Other factors that cannot be taken into account is ability rich people aren't rich because they are stupid, most work hard to get where they are, clever parents generally value education and generally have slightly smarter children as a result of this value in education.

[fivecandles]

no, wherestthe pimms. Under the Nottingham LEA's proposals the amount of holiday remains exactly the same, it's just redistributed.

[fivecandles]

Here www.nottinghamcity.gov.uk/index.aspx?articleid=14982

[wheresthepimms]

How fivecandles how if you are going to have an accident it doesn't matter if it is day one or day 100 of the holidays if you do something silly it will happen, you just spread the accidents out over the year, probably with kids missing more time due to being in a cast because the unsupervised angel decided they could fly out of the tree

[fivecandles]

It does seem odd that you think your personal opinion is somehow more worthwhile than academic studies.

Surely common sense and instinct will tell you that kids are going to forget stuff the longer the holiday they have? And that that will be even more marked if they're left totally unsupervised compared to if mummy and daddy take them to France and read to them regularly etc??

Most teachers will tell you the same thing too. You spend loads of time getting kids back into the routine and teaching the stuff they should have learnt last year in September.

[wheresthepimms]

fivecandles I get the redistribution you obviously don't read posts or you would know that !!

I pity the children in your class if you are not willing to accept that peoples views differ, I have conceded points of your argument make sense but for us the shorter breaks more frequently wouldn't work that is my view due to my DHs job family time is very important and as such if DH could not take time in those 4 weeks my DCs would be out of school

[fivecandles]

You're being rather disingenuous wheresthepimms. Of course kids can have accidents any times but 6 weeks is a long time. Kids get bored. Unsupervised kids can get into a hell of a lot more trouble over 6 weeks than they can in 2.

I recognize that in my very middle class kids. But a lot of the kids in dps' school end up with asbos at the end of 6 weeks!!

[fivecandles]

wheresthepimms, I've said that I respect that. But you must understand that the very particular circumstances of a minority of families does not negate the value of switching the school year for the majority of all our kids.

[jabed]

'At best, students showed little or no academic growth
over summer. At worst, students lost one to three months
of learning.
? Summer loss was somewhat greater in math than reading.
? Summer loss was greatest in math computation and spelling.
? For disadvantaged students, reading scores were
disproportionately affected and the achievement gap
between rich and poor widened

Is this the entirety of your argument for changing the holidays?

Ye Gds, what about the children having a life and doing things which are not educational? What about children becoming rounded mature individuals?
There is more to life than school and educational targets

You seem obsessed with education and achievement and little else.
So all this is really about you needing to make yourself look a good teacher and you cannot make up some perceived deficit or backslide that the children suffer in the summer holidays - so rather than target your teaching more effectivley you want the holidays changed?

My Gd what a sad case you are. Get a life woman!

[fivecandles]

And I cannot stand the way some people dismiss or try to naturalise the way that poor kids underachieve.

I just don't get how it's acceptable to say well everyone knows that poor kids do badly that's just the way it is any more than it's acceptable to say that about people who get cancer.

If there are things we can do to prevent poor kids underachieving then we should do them.

[wheresthepimms]

How do you know it is a minority? Has any one done a study on when people can take their holidays? In the forces you are confined to specific block periods, I know this is true in some industrial jobs as well, even in many specific scientific firms there are periods of block leave. Until you actually survey the whole of the workforce would you know how it affects people, has any one done a study on what affect it may have on tourism industries etc. There are academic reasons I understand but there are other factors that also need to be considered

[fivecandles]

Jabed, I'm not sure you're reading my posts very well.

We all agree that holidays are important. Nobody is proposing that we get rid of a single day of holiday time.

You still get 4 whole weeks at summer plus you get better more meaningful holidays at other times in the year. Whoopee!

[wheresthepimms]

well said Jabad I'm off to play with my now on holiday as of 20 mins ago kids and have a nice fun filled summer

[jabed]

But actually it's laughable to argue that even all the middle class kids are using every day of the 6 weeks in valuable ways

Here it is again - education, education, ediucation! Well I certainly hope any decent middle class parent ( and their DC's) are not using every day "in valuable ways" unless its just to pig out and relax!

I will state that this middle class male and his family do NOTHING valuable educationally in the holidays. Its about not doing things and thats what we do. I switch off totallyduring holidays and am the better for it.
You fivecandles are the very reason I do not ever want to see my DS in a state school. With teachers like you it would be hell on earth.

[fivecandles]

wheresthepimms, the research I linked to earlier says that only a quarter of parents disagree that the summer holiday is too long.

I understand your viewpoint and respect why you don't want the change given your particular circumstances but as I keep saying there really can't be many families who need a full 6 weeks in one go every year rather than 4 weeks at summer and then 2 week half-terms.

[fivecandles]

Jabed, you're not listening.

I've agreed that the stuff people do or don't do on holiday is valuable.

Nobody is getting rid of a single day of holidays.

Personally I can really see the benefits of being able to switch off for 2 weeks in October and 2 weeks in Feburary as well as for 4 weeks in summer. I'm suprised that as a teacher you can't

[fivecandles]

And, Jabed, I don't really understand why you need to resort to personal attacks because of what various researchers have suggested about holidays!!