Changes to holidays - debate on woman's hour

[fivecandles]

Apparently Nottingham LEA is piloting a change to school holidays such that the long summer holiday is reduced to 4 weeks but the half-terms become 2 weeks long so no time lost in total, just redistributed. I think it's a really good idea for all the reasons given on the programme and I'm a teacher. Anyone else got thoughts?

[fivecandles]

news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/education/7418899.stm

[wordfactory]

cory makes perfect sense here to me.

If children are to have holidays it makes sense to do iut when the weather will let them be outside for longer.

Perhaps their maths and knowledge of Roman Britain regresses slightly...but their knowledge of other thingd hugely increases.
An education is not what happens in school. That is only one part of it.
Healthy human children need to spend lots of time outside and that is best facilitated during the summer whgen the mornings and nights are light.

That said perhaps a two week June half term could work and a week knocked off Summer break.

[fivecandles]

Erm, Word, they would still get one month holiday in summer.

Do you think the Christmas holiday should also be shortened because of the weather???

[fivecandles]

It's hard to understand how anyone could argue that 4 weeks holiday is too short to fit in what you want to especially given that there then be more opportunities for going away and doing stuff in the lengthened half-terms.

[mrz]

I think there is a case for more balanced terms (this year with a late Easter we had a half term of 2 weeks and 4 days!) but you are assuming that everyone can afford to go away and do things if there were longer holidays at other times and that isn't necessarily true. Longer holidays when the weather is reasonable can be spent doing things that don't cost the earth so I can see word's argument for longer May/June breaks.

[AandO]

Five candles - I guess I just do not believe that the most important thing for a child is education. I don't think it's a big deal if they regress a bit over the summer. Also I'd like to see the original research, I am a researcher by profession and know that alot of actual research findings get distorted.

Pimms (I think) - my younger sister was raised in the US from age 8. She is now 20. She got me to look over her cv recently, she had soooooo much voluntary work on it. It was part of her schooling. They got credit for things like voluntering (sp?) and extra curricula activities. Btw she loved school over there. She went from a dull sit at your desk and read from the text book Irish school to the US. There it was all project work, lots of research etc. Alot more fun she felt. Perhaps you have project based learning in the UK? We don't here in Ireland.

[wheresthepimms]

fivecandles not really arguing that you couldn't do things in the 4 weeks holiday but if my DH is away for 6 months in the year then the long summer break for us is good as he gets leave. As it is if he hasn't been away for 6 months he does usually (not this year) get 4 weeks block leave during the holidays. In the other weeks we visit relatives and take some chill time. Mine get around 9 weeks off for the summer and we love it, need more of it to be honest. They do also get 2 weeks in October which is just appalling, its too wet to go outside, not snowy enough to ski anywhere, too cold to camp and we can't afford with 4DCs to go away somewhere hot so end up stuck inside getting on each others nerves trying to work through the homework they get and not having that much fun.

My comments about poor children were just that, mainly sarcastic and due to one poster saying about how they couldn't afford to entertain their children through the long summer break, was mainly trying to point out that it doesn't have to be expensive (with 4 DCs I am the queen of free outings)

Many schools do still get the 2 week Whit holiday and this year as easter was so late it didn't work for us very well, mine were off for a month in April (with Easter, royal wedding and end of term break) and then again not that long after for half term, the in and out of school affected them far more than a long break they didn't know if they were coming or going.

If you look at another thread on here about why boarding schools have such long holidays then you may understand why some of us would be reluctant to give them up. When we live abroad and our DCs (hasn't happened yet but will in the future) are at boarding school the amount of travelling (i.e. friends of ours DCs were in boarding school they were in Oklahoma) it took the children 2 days travelling from after school broke up to get home, if you were having more frequent breaks this would mean the majority of their holidays were spent travelling not spending time with their families

One size will never fit all, and yes we are being skeptical but maybe we need to try it out in some test schools before suggesting it for all schools. I do see your arguments, they do make sense to me but my opinion of what is right for my family is that it wouldn't work. Sorry must agree to disagree :(

[wheresthepimms]

AandO yes they get special credits for doing volunteer work, it is hard to get into college if you haven't done any, we had friends children asking to babysit for us for free so we could go out as long as we signed their sheet to say they had volunteered. I felt bad about not paying them (always managed to sneak some to them via parents etc) but they could not be paid or it would not count, all to do with being a good citizen (may David Cameron is secretly American )

[jabed]

Fivecandles - why is it always you who have to make the running? An argumentitive little soul arent you?

Do you really read the research you quote or do you read the sound bites and throw it all up here?

I am not going to argue. I gave my view. I gave my experience. I am entitled to an opinion. Simply because I do not agree with you does not makle me a dinasour or an idiot who has not understood that the holidays are not being shortened but just redistributed. I am not going into the argument of what I can do with 9 weeks summer holiday with my family I cannot do with those redistributed ones. That is irrelevent.

In fact I will say no more because my experience ( the experience of one again) is that you argue for the same of argument

I will say though that you need to really read the research.
Recognsie that a correlation is not a cause.
Finally, I arguably teach middle class children of all abilities all the time and I have never found that "plateau" you keep taking about.

The issue of underachievement ( or are we really talking over achievement?) is about far deeper cultural and attitude differences to education and that is why changing holidays will not have the fix all effect you seem to want to think.

The education system in the country was a world beater up until the mid 1980's - longer holidays, summer breaks and all. Something changed then. Fix that.

[fivecandles]

That's fair enough AandO BUT even though you may not care about your kids going backwards, many parents would if they knew it was happening. I DO care about the way my kids slip backwards and the difficulty of adjusting to full-on learning in September after a 6 week break. But it's also about the impact on our children and on society as a WHOLE. It should be a major concern to all of us that the children who are most likely to suffer academically are those who already have the odds stacked against them. This is one more obstacle from success. It should also be a concern that vandalism and petty crime and accidents increase as a result of children getting bored. It's also a concern that many children are left unsupervised.

I also don't buy the fact that children even with the most brilliant parents in the world benefit from 6 weeks holiday in a way they wouldn't over 4.

As I say, there are additional benefits to havin extended holidays in half-term. One week is often not long enough to have a real break or get away in Feb or Oct but 2 is. You can get to do more stuff including nothing if that's what you and your kids want to do in half-terms WHILST still preserving a very long holiday in summer.

[fivecandles]

Jabed, this debate is not a personal argument. The RESEARCH tells us that most children slide backwards during the long summer holiday and there are additional problems caused by it.

Why are people not interested in looking for solutions to this?

Rather than keeping to a calendar devised around allowing children to help bring in the harvest.

I do find it very odd that some people seem to be against change just for the sake of it.

There are good academic and social arguments for a change. And really nobody has come up with any good reasons why there shouldn't be a change that aren't entirely personal.

[jabed]

I guess I just do not believe that the most important thing for a child is education. I don't think it's a big deal if they regress a bit over the summer. Also I'd like to see the original research, I am a researcher by profession and know that alot of actual research findings get distorted.

Well said AandO. My thoughts and feelings exactly. I have though read some of the original research and it certainly does not entirely support the argument as presented here.

[fivecandles]

It's also really bizarre that because you can't fix all the worlds problems you shouldn't try and address the ones you can.

wheresthepimms, I'm afraid your comments about boarding school just emphasise the fact that it's a minority of privileged parents and their kids who really benefit from a 6 week break at summer. And, since most boarding schools are independent, there's nothing to stop them having whatever holidays they like.

What is being argued by think tanks and researchers is that there are real academic and social reasons for reducing the summer holiday to a month and redistributing the holidays to extend half-terms.

I also find it slightly amusing that those of you arguing for the value of spending time with your kids on holiday are all sitting on here

[notso]

The whole education system in this country is completely flawed, our children are able to start school almost five years later than most other countries and they still are out performed.
Changing school holidays is not going to sort this out.

[fivecandles]

Looks like it's already working in one school

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/yourview/1553675/Are-childrens-summer-holidays-too-long.html

[WoTmania]

I haven't got any insightful points to make but on a personal note I would prefer things to stay as they are. I loved the long holidays (I lived in France for most of my primary school years and the get around 9 weeks. 'Twas bliss) as a child and enjoy them now DS1 is getting them.
I suppose it would be interesting to do as a pilot scheme somewhere and see how oit worked out over a couple of years but dpn't know that it would make that much of a difference. Yes, childcare can be a pain for WOHPs but surely they would just have to find the 2 weeks somewhere else in the year?

[fivecandles]

Here's an article with a link to the IPPR report www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2008/may/27/giveusabetterbreak

[wheresthepimms]

fivecandles why because my DCs are at boarding school do you assume they are privileged? They are there because my DH is forces and they were suffering from moving every 20ish months. We struggle to pay the bills, drive 20 year old cars and certainly don't have money to spare, especially as I find it hard to get a job (even with my degree) as we live in houses that local companies know are forces and will not employ people from as they will be moving soon. If we didn't have the long break then I am sure we would be taking more holiday time during school time which is disruptive to my DCs and the other DCs in the class

[fivecandles]

This is also interesting www.ipsos-mori.com/researchpublications/researcharchive/2057/The-Summer-Holiday-At-Home-Going-Away.aspx

Contrary to some of the views on here,

'Parents have a less positive view of their children's school summer holiday. In contrast with their recollections of their own school summer holiday, half of all parents with school age children feel that the school summer holiday is too long (49%). Only a quarter disagree with this view (25%).

Holiday Entertainment

Almost two-thirds of parents state that they find it difficult to keep their children entertained during the school summer holiday (64%), and that such entertainment is expensive (68%).

Safety is also an issue for some. Half of all those with dependent children feel that they would worry about their child's safety at organised summer holiday events (49%).'

[wheresthepimms]

fivecandles yes it says their results have gone up but it does not say over how many years, there may be other factors to consider (good school year, change of teachers, choice of exam subjects etc etc ) would need to be done over a long period to prove that it was the change in holidays

[jabed]

Why are people not interested in looking for solutions to this?

I will repeat for the sale of being a broken record:

a) the research is ambiguous at best and does not support any value in holiday change in the long term from an educational point of view

b) this country had a world beating education for all before the mid 1980's ( we were rightly proud of that as a nation too!) longer holidays included. The solution lies in finding out what went wrong then and fixing that , not tatting ( yet again ) with education in terms of cosmetics - grades, standards, eductainment and now holidays! It aint broke , lets not break it!

c) If you want solutions ( yes I am interested in solutions) you have to look further and deeper into culture and attitudes to education ( as well as the way it is deleivered and the schools we have ) to sort that. It wont be a quick fix either.

[wheresthepimms]

Safety is also an issue for some. Half of all those with dependent children feel that they would worry about their child's safety at organised summer holiday events (49%).' well that just shows how paranoid parents have become nothing to do with the length of holidays

[fivecandles]

Also being argued in America where holidays are even longer www.newsweek.com/2010/09/27/obama-calls-for-a-longer-school-year.html

[fivecandles]

independent schools can choose the holidays they like pimms.

[jabed]

yes it says their results have gone up but it does not say over how many years, there may be other factors to consider (good school year, change of teachers, choice of exam subjects etc etc ) would need to be done over a long period to prove that it was the change in holidays

Indeed, as I said previously from experience, results do appear to improve initially ( partly because of the monitoring and various other things) . But the results dropped back equally quickly. I think it has something to do with the Hawthorne Effect. Thats why it never seems to last ( there have been several other experiments).

I note we are still getting the sound bites here, not the research.