New code of practice stating teacher's children will get priority on school places

[McTemp]

Not sure if there has been a topic about this before - I couldn't find one.

Has anyone seen the Draft Admissions code that is being consulted on here ?

It states Children of staff at the school
1.33 If admission authorities decide to give priority to children of staff, they must set out clearly in their admission arrangements how they will define ?staff? and on what basis children of staff will be prioritised.

This is new - children attending mainstream state funded schools have never been given priority if their parents teach there before.

What are your thoughts on this?

Personally, I think its very unfair. It discriminates against other working parents who also have to manage the school drop offs/pick ups. Teachers already get the benefit of not having to find childcare during school holidays, this seems like a ridiculous 'perk' to have, surely?! Not to even get started on the problems I can imagine arising where good teachers no longer want to work at the under-achieving schools, because they will only want jobs in the outstanding schools, so their children can go there. I'm not a fan of this proposal at all!

gordon, I can see that where you're coming from it doesn't seem like a bit deal. 10 or so years ago there wasn't the reception place crisis that there currently is in some areas (10,000 kids in London with no reception place offer).

If I was the parent of one of these kids and my neighbour who happened to be a teacher got fast-tracked into a half-way decent school, I would be getting extremely wound up.

If there are enough decent places to go round then, yes, it's not that big a deal. Unfortunately, there aren't, meaning that in some areas the 'unfair advantage' will actually mean getting a school place because one of your parents is a teacher, over children that have none.

hester, I wouldn't agree with the pay band tbh. I know someone who works in a kitchen for the minimum wage who does hours of unpaid overtime a day because he's scared shitless that he wouldn't be able to get another job.

A teacher friend of mine also told me that she was going to take her son into school with her when he starts. I don't know anything about her school - it may be one that's not oversubscribed so everyone who applied get a place - but it's not in the admission code at the moment.

Rosebud may only be a big deal in urban areas then? Maybe only London?

I can kind of see your point if there is little choice of schools in the area. But, as I said, the local school didn't want my ds because I didn't take him to church!

I'm not particularly saying that classes over 30 are a good thing, although we only have that limit in infants. However, you raised the point that parents of twins are currently offered places at different schools. It is good news for those parents that the proposed changes to the Admission Code mean that should be less common.

Rosebud, I didn't mean that only well-paid people do unpaid overtime. I am saying that poorly paid people shouldn't do overtime unpaid - that's exploitation - but that for people on highish wages it is a cultural expectation that they should put in the hours to get the job done, and I don't think that's outrageous.

Had never heard about this. I am a teacher and my eldest child started this year at the school which I work part time in. I sent him there because it is a great Catholic school which has a fabulous reputation and I love what it does for the kids at it. I did however have to sweat it out through the usual criteria for admission with no special treatment for me working at the school, (despite people saying "you'll be fine you work there") But having been to a number of appeals for school places in my role as governor... there is currently no special treatment! The reason my ds got in above others is that being catholic rightly comes before locality with a catholic school! I would expect no special treatment nor would I want it for working at the school! Working parents have it tough. I am lucky I have a fabulous Head that despite working there will let me watch events my child is involved with.... because as a teacher, unlike other jobs..... you cannot book time off. And being a dd of two teachers (not working at the school I went to) I had grandparents, not parents at any day time school events! so there is an argument there I suppose for having your children at the same school.... but it is definitely a tricky one!!!!!

This does seem like a step in the wrong direction.

"Most working parents don't have their kids' childcare on site - why is this so problematic for teachers?"

I think the main issue is with start times. A teacher generally needs to be on site by 8.30am at the very latest. Even if your child's school has a breakfast club, it won't start until 8am. So if there is a commute between your school and your child's, it can be cutting it really fine. Whereas with most other jobs, if you drop your child at 8am you can still arrive in good time without being really rushed.

I'm not sure how I feel about these proposals. I personally would never choose to have my child at the school I teach at, unless it was a small school where we lived in the catchment anyway. I experienced it the other way around when my mum taught at my school, and hated it. But I take issue with some of the posts above that suggest that teachers have higher standards for their own kids than the kids they teach. I hope (and expect) that my daughter will attend the local school, 2 minutes from our house. It doesn't have a great Ofsted report, I think it's an ok school but nothing amazing, but I have always believed that children should ideally attend the local school. The school I teach at has a more difficult catchment area but does a fantastic job in lots of ways, has a higher Ofsted rating and is perceived as very good- it is very oversubscribed at the moment.

Thankfully I work only 2 days and am SEN co-ordinator so will have little to do with my own child (unless he has SEN) I sent him there because it is the closest decent catholic school. To me the biggest issue (and this wasn't the reason I sent him) was to do with the facts of : assemblies, sports day, school plays, nativities, open days! As a teacher at another school, even part time if they fall on the wrong days... YOU MISS OUT! You cannot just take time off, and whilst the school holidays are massive compensation..... I still remember NOT having my parents at things!!!! So yes childcare is an issue and as teachers we have the holidays but if I workes in another job I would not question taking valuable time off for school events IF I COULD!!!!!!

p.s. Teachers in the main are on site between 7.30- 8.00 at the very latest!!!!!

To be fair, there's plenty of working parents who can't just take time off for school events. Even those of us who can in theory, don't because it reduces the time we can take off to cover the long summer holidays...

I'm not saying I oppose privileged admission for teachers' children necessarily (haven't made me mind up on that one) just pointing it out. Oh, and many of us have to start work before 8.30, and/or have to travel for longer than 30 minutes to get to work. There's not many working parents who find it EASY.

'My mind up', obviously. I'm not completely illiterate.

Totally agree.... it comes down to choices... I wouldn't necessarily choose to have my ds in my school, because at times it is NOT easy! But it is the best Catholic school in the area so how can I not send him?????! But the same goes.... you said it... theoretically you have a choice to take time off or not for school events... as a teacher there is no choice unfortunately. Still not saying I agree with the priveleged thing ( like you ... not made my mind up) but can see reasons for it! And no working parent has it easy!!!!

"teachers are on site between 7.30-8.00 at the very latest"

Really? My neighbour is teacher and drops her son at nursery at 8 then gets the bus into her school.

My other neighbour is a bus driver whose morning shifts start at 5am.

Still not buying the argument why teachers's childcare arrangements are tricker than anyone else's.

"many of us have to start work before 8.30, and/or have to travel for longer than 30 minutes to get to work. There's not many working parents who find it EASY."

Yes, you're right of course, I'm not suggesting that it's only teachers who have this issue, and as I said I'm not convinced they should get priority for school places. Where I live though (commuter distance from London) a lot of people either work locally or commute but have a later or more flexible start time.

As for the point about teachers missing out on school plays etc, that will certainly be the case for me. Nothing I can do about it, I just have to accept it as part of being a working parent- same as many others.

Look at it another way, You have an amazingly fab teacher at your school who you hope all your younger children will have at some point. If that teacher has to leave the school because of childcare arrangements (her child can only get into her own catchment school 20 miles away) wouldn't it be better for YOU that her child could be considered in the admission process at your school?

I'm sure it won't be some 'fast-track' process, more of the logistics of being in two places at once is stopping teachers applying for posts where they would be best suited. I think us parents would benefit!

Further up I said it would probably only be 1 or 2 places - I didn't mean per year, I meant in the school.

Not if my child actually hadn't been allocated a place at any school, hocus, which is the situation for thousands of 4 year olds in parts of London, Surrey and Bristol at the moment.

The number of places would remain the same though - they'd just be allocated differently. The lack of an adequate number of places, leaving some with nothing, is a completely different mess.

And you're much more likely to "miss" a place because a year has a lot of siblings, or indeed the arrival of families with children with SEN or looked after children, than a priority given to teachers' children.

You're right, Rosebud, there are a lot of children not being allocated places at the moment- a lot more schools are needed. My LEA has a huge problem with places at the moment, leading to school expansion, new schools and the need to recruit a lot more staff. Obviously they will be wanting to recruit the best staff that they can get, the changes to the code of practice can help them to do this.

I agree with others who say that the actual number of places taken by teacher's children will be minimal. In my own school, which is very large, I can only think of 2 or 3 teachers who might realistically choose it for their own children, and they are the ones who live fairly locally anyway.

Life is never fair and Hertfordshire used to allow staff to have priority for school places.

I think its reasonable to allow academies to set their own admission criteria. I would prefer more effort to make sure that all schools have thier fair share of children with SEN, children who are on the at risk register, middle class children and stupid children.

I think that publically funded secondary schools should all have an intake that reflects the social mix of the area within 3 miles and primary schools should have an intake that reflects the social mix within one mile. How this is achieved should be left up to the governors.

It would be interesting if a school was forced to give priority to children who are entitled to free school dinners, if their admissions policy does not give a mixed intake.

I have two problems with this -

The first is from the child's point of view. I don't think that it is healthy for a child to go to a school where their parent is a teacher. It completely changes the school dynamic for the child, even if the teacher is popular (heaven help them if she/he isn't).

Second, if this is being done so that the teacher doesn't have drop-off issues, then what happens to the children before school starts? Because breakfast club doesn't start until 8am, and I certainly wouldn't want children hanging around in a staff room where confidential info about my child was available (re: thread on AIBU several months ago).

I can't see the children of staff hanging around in the staffroom. And most teachers are professional enough not to discuss confidential issues in front of their children (I know some are not- just like every other job). More likely they'd be sitting in their parent's classroom getting on with homework or some other quiet activity. Very bored!

It's not the same as SEN or looked after children priority. These children have an ongoing vulnerability and needs in addition to other children of their age.

The lack of places is a separate but related issue. It's about how to allocate inadequate resources and I don't agree that teacher's children should have a different priority to others.

The siblings thing is a whole other discussion.

I'm not sure how having their children in their school would actually facilitate teachers tbh. They'd still have to use breakfast/after school clubs otherwise they wouldn't be 'at work', they'd be looking after their children in their workplace which is a different matter.

All categories for "priority" children are of course different.

I mentioned them because of a point further up the thread (yesterday 19:55:45) about how the first parent on the waiting list might feel. There will always be that person, regardless of which categories must or may be permitted as priorities. And the other priority categories are likely to be much larger than the one under discussion here.

Before and after school they either just read books, play in the hall, make cups of tea for the staff, photocopy, sort library books etc etc. They don't really need 'looking after' as such. More of an asset really!