Displaying childrens position in tables on school walls

[ScousyFogarty]

I heard an item on radio. London school. Headmistress displayed list on the walls of all childrens placement top to bottom. Presenter said that would be hard on children at bottom...Any views? Another teacher said she would not do it.

Sorry for multiple posts! Yy to the peer group encouragement thing: my students are very clear about assessment aims and objectives and can measure their progress against them as long as - and this is key - teachers share assessment criteria with the students. No secrets, no hierarchies. A class of mine all performed to each other - solo - today for an assessment and I modelled each grade in advance so they all knew what to expect. I guess my subject is very shared by nature, but I really think students know how others are doing and don't need it put up in a bloody chart! Education is an uphill, improving, game if getting better at things - why do people want to make it a constant judgement.

Thankfully it never happened to my DC. It was the norm when I was at school in the 1960s, and if you were like me near the bottom of the class in reading and english it was humiliating. Being nearer the top in scripture, history, geography and arithmatic didn't help much. I felt that I was a failure. I couldn't draw so never had a piece of work displayed on the wall, and I was crap at sport. Needless to say I went to secondary school thinking I was totally useless.

I teach at a school which is in special measures. We're on our way up, but one of the consequences of SM is that we are constantly scrutinised by HMI and OFSTED, and have to deliver lessons which tick every box consistently. One of the big things is that every student should know exactly what their target level is in every subject, how to reach it and then how to exceed it. As teachers, we have to make sure that every child knows this. When inspectors come into our classes, they ask the children - what's your target? Where are you now? How do you move to the next level. EVERYTHING is public. Similarly, children who have been identified as gifted or talented have to know, and the other children in the class have to know too. We had a briefing on this earlier in the week. We are encouraged (to be honest, I do this anyway, but was a bit surprised at how blatent OFSTED expect it to be), if we're doing group work, to make a G&T student group leader and to be very clear (as in "Lauren, you're group leader of this group because you've been identified as gifted in this subject") about it. OFSTED inspectors will ask students about it, and if they don't know, we get marked down. TBH, sticking a table on the wall saying who is at what level wouldn't be telling any of the kids anything they don't already know.

From a 'getting everyone to learn and improve' point of view, getting a gifted student to be a group leader might make sense sometimes but not always

Ofsted talk bullshit sometimes. Yes to all kids knowing where they're at and what to do to improve, but it's all very quantitative ATM, numbers and figures. They don't want the kids to say 'well I'm good at x, y and z and I can do y really well, but I find a and b difficult so I'm doing p to imprive' they want little robots saying 'I'm a level 4c and my target is a level 5b'

It's the hierarchy thing that's so obviously wrong. Competition only attracts the top 30% of students.

Lordy EvilTwins.. that system must be 'fun' to work with.
My ds in year 1 in second ability group for most things and although groups are 'colours' he knows where he's at. There are some cocky little sods in the 'top' group who would just love to go around telling people they are 'gifted and talented'. They know they are bright but to have it made so obvious by teachers at such a young age I think unhealthy.
Don't envy your situation EvilTwins.

very interesting debate thanks to all posters. I was at school yonks ago. Late starter. Catching up. I shall enjoy posting on the education site. Over and out. Wife thinks I have left home. Computer will be named in divorce proceedings. Any of you lotlive in the east midllands....? Nil desperandum epidural. I could have been a comedian but I dont do heavy swearing. This is your life xxx xxxxxxxxxx

Ds1(7) in Year 2, was telling me tonight, about what table he is on,and that he hopes that he never goes down etc etc. And that there is a target. apparently they want all the children to aim to be on the top 3 tables. I was saddened to hear that he knew all this. But there you go. I told him he was just fine where he was and not to worry about it at all. But inside my heart was sinking that he even knew about it all.
Allt he kids know, you know. They knew in reception which other kids were bright and which dinosaur table was better than hippo etc etc. they are more clued up than I wish they were !!

Nasty! This is what they did years ago when I was at school. It was OK for me as I was usually towards the top, but totally demotivated my friends who were usually at the bottom and both worked far harder than I did.

Also, having a son with learning difficulties I can say that it would have devastated him. He works far harder than his gifted brother, but can never attain the top of charts like this. I would have gone ballistic if his school had ever done this.

Mmmm ,yes mugshots in staff room ,yes all kids must be able to say what level they are blah blah .
Now I think about it - explains why DS became so depressed in last couple of years and his comments about " I'm always the bottom rung " .
So depressed that he's pulled out of school and weeks before his A2 exams .

Our IT systems have (ahem) died somewhat in the last couple of days. This means that we have had to teach lessons without any technology. This has, for me, meant no powerpoint showing objectives, WALTs, WILFs, literacy focus, key words, assessment criteria and so on being projected ad nauseum throughout my lessons. Fuck me, the kids had a good time. It was so much more relaxed without having "progress check" blaring out. The students actually had time to work on things, develop things (I teach Performing Arts) and think about what they were doing, rather than whether they were hitting the criteria for a 5a or a 6c. Not great for OFSTED, of course, but soooo much nicer as a teacher (and a student, I'm guessing from how it went). A colleague told me that she'd had the best lesson ever with a particularly tricky class that we share, as there wasn't the visual pressure (ie from assessment criteria being ever-present) to be hitting and exceeding target grades.

mmm, I think it's cruel. Kids tend to know anyway, they don't need it spelled out for all to see like that. I'm sure brighter children may well get a buzz from it but that wouldn't be worth the upset caused to a struggling child who tries really hard but is just never going to achieve high marks academically.

After I qualified as a teacher I did a brief stint teaching in Africa. Having come from a course where it was stressed to us that, if we had to stream, to do it as invisibly as possible, and having got used to naming my ability groups 'squirrels', 'badgers','owls' etc, it was quite a shock to arrive in the African classroom and see three tables clearly labled 'fast', 'average' and 'slow' - ouch!

I don't think you can motivate by demoralising.

Manic to digress from the topic, I always get distressed when I read posts like yours. I don't mean to single you out and most teachers use similar language and have similar mindsets. To elaborate you talk about 'brighter' children and those 'never going to achieve high marks academically'. My teacher thought that I was in the second category and this belief had a powerful effect on my practical intelligence. The message being subconsciously sent to children is that these things are unalterable. It's a message that I believe is still being sent.

We barcode children very young. Why don't we think in terms of children's current attainment? Then subtle streaming is less problematic. We need to think it's perfectly possible for the 'less able' to become the 'more able'. Assuming there are no serious learning impairments this is feasible (even if there are learning impairments progress is possible). Ability is not set in stone, believing it is is far more harmful than any public display of high/low sets. Children need to believe that their minds are expandable and yet even in reception these labels are upon them 'bright', 'slow' etc. Once they are there these labels are sticky, few teachers decide a 'bright' child isn't 'bright' any longer and sometimes things are entrenched by the NC system.

They used to do this in my 70's school. In the classroom, with a prize at the end of each term for whoever came top. Which was always me. I wasn't, however, as "top" as I could have been, because I was so mortified, and picked on, both by other kids and some teachers, that I used to make mistakes in tests on purpose, to not get 100% all the time. By the time I got to secondary school and university I think that experience had been so imprinted on me, that I was always the B kid. Did enough to keep everyone happy, but there was no way I was going to get singled out again.

So, I would be very opposed to such a thing. Just from the opposite end of the chart.

see I would hate this ds has sn so academic wise he be at the bottom hell in group of 1 and he has physical issues so sports wise he be at bottom to where would that leave him .Certainly not the confident happy little boy he is now

I think it's a good idea and something that would have motivated me as a child. Yes, I doubt I would have been at the top, but I think it would have pushed me to try and improve my ranking. But then I am very competetive

Agree with the majority of posters, just wrong wrong wrong. And as many have said, kids know from very early on in their school career what the ability tables mean, who sits where, which is the strugglers table etc, however teachers try to mask it with colours, shapes or whatever. I would feel so much for the kids at the bottom of any list, and what about the kids at the top? Bragging rights for the parents, what other purpose could such a list serve? And I speak as the mother of a child in year 5 who, when all subjects were balanced out and averaged would probably be in the top half, and a child in year 2 who would probably be at, or very near to, the top.

And having to tell children that they are on a G&T list? Blimey.

2Boystooloud - I can think of a couple of children in my yr 2 child's year who would also love to go around proclaiming that they are "Gifted and Talented" too, little shits (oops, did I say that?) and one girl in particular who not only says that she is the best but also mocks other children.

Hey ho.

CLARICEBEAN I take it from the tone of your post that you have kid/s that aren't necessarily top of the 'sports' tree? The reason for my question is whilst one child may be academic and another not, their mugshot goes on the bloody ranking board, regardless, whilst it's just the sports TEAMS who's pictures are up for all to see, celebrating THEIR acheivements.

If they had the 'Who's crap at Sport' listings and mugshots, would that be OK? By your rationale you wouldn't mind the clever, hard working kid who may (or may not) be good at sport with his little face at the bottom of THAT chart. Still think it's a good idea? It would be laughed at! So why is it OK in the classroom?

What about the middle of the road kids who try hard and do OK at most things, but don't 'qualify' for top of any type of board? Soul destroying for them, who are, after all, the majority. What would they do to be noticed??

Sorry, Scousy, in a bit of a flippant mood yesterday, I don't go around beating up teachers, honestly!

Seriously, I do strongly object to results being put up on a public board for all to see as the only reason for doing this can be to motivate the weakest by fear of humiliation and allow the strongest to crow at the others. Not very healthy.

Bad for those lower down the list as the other kids will not take into account the often complex reasons for a perticular child's performance and will just call them "thick".

Can also be bad for the ones at the top of the list as can cause resentment from others low down who see themselves as having their noses rubbed in the better performance of others. This happenend to me - my top position on all the lists was roundly resented by those at the bottom and i was labelled as "smug" even though i had no wish for my results to be broadcast. I don't blame them either, it was cruel.

TBH my DCs results are no-one's business but mine, my Dcs and their teachers.

My DDs schol has a good attitude to this. Individual results are given to pupils by their teachers in private and they are discouraged from telling their classmates. This helps a lot to calm down the excessive competitiveness that can exist in schools like hers.

For top performing DCs knowing themselves that they have done well is enough reward.

Having the attitude that beating others in the class is the most important thing is pretty unhealthy. After all, in 10 years time no-one will give a damn who came top in the y3 English exam. What matters is that you do the best that you personally can and find your place in the adult world.

Sorry about excessively long post, suffering from verbal diarrhoea today!

Bucarest - omg yes, I was you at school!

In first yr of senior school teachers started broadcasting exam results. I was always top and held out as an "example" to the others. No wonder those near the bottom of the list hated me.

I was mortified, didn't want that kind of attention at all. I was very tempted to do badly to get away from the attention.

Luckily, I was able to find a group of other high performers to hang around with and felt able to keep my grades up. But I will never forget the effect that unwanted attention had on me.

A lot of great posts. A learning curve for me.

Manic...I agree you cannot motivate by demoralising.

CARROTS ARE NOT,,,,I agree with the whole of your long post.. So I am old enough in this nickname arena to score you 9 out of 10.

But I will not pin it up on my wall; or indeed any other walls. Because "walls have ears" As we were told many years ago. (Its almost poetry)

This is the kind of thing that would make my low-confidence ds totally give up.

But wouldn't have made an iota of difference to my gifted dd.

And would have brought me in for even more bullying.

Can't see anything good about it in fact.

I think its is a very good idea. But then my children are very competitive and very bright, and if they know one child beat them by 1 point to get 1st place, it would make them work harder the next time.

My son does have weaker subjects, but knowing his position in class does make him work harder at those subjects.

They have a prize day at his school, and a lot of the subjects have an award system for most improved as well as awards for shear genius, like sport we all know who comes first, so why shouldnt we know in Science or English or Art etc?

Would you be so keen if your DCs were not top of the class, shortround?

Or if perhaps your DCs had the sensitivity to not want to be used as an example to humiliate those who are not lucky enough to have their abilities?

This kind of uber-competitive, devil-take-the hindmost attitude can be very ugly.

Personally, i would like my DC to grow up with a little more compassion for others.

My children are in a pretty competitive environment, so it isnt something I at the moment have to consider. Saying that number 3 hasnt started school yet!

My children are very compassionate towards others, I did say my son does have weaker subjects (my daughter just isnt sporty at all) but likewise I am not having them grow up with a huge chip on thier shoulder.

thebeansmum - almost - for all his school life my DS has had to live with being one of two children not picked for teams, matches, training camps. The teams go up every week and every week he is not chosen. This is the equivalent of "Who's crap at sport" list.

Those who are crap at French aren't left off the French trip.

My argument is if you are pinning names up for teams then you pin up names across all areas - this way we learn we all have strengths and weaknesses.