Teachers - are you voting yes for strike action

[sandgrounder]

Went to NUT meeting at school yesterday re pension reform. Cannot see myself teaching until 68 and who wants their kids taught by oldies not wanting to be there.

I also don't think it's particularly helpful to make comparisons between the public and private sector or to lump them into sectors which have huge discrepancies.

Teaching is paid less than other graduate only professions. Most teachers could earn more in other jobs (in the private sector). However, the pension scheme provides security such that teachers are willing to accept a more modest salary than they could otherwise earn (and use to invest to provide for retirement) but if this goes fewer graduates will turn to teaching.

I should perhaps clarify the point I make wrt parents.

I do not believe that teachers striking for a day or two will have any effect whatever on the debate about pensions at the government policy level.

What it will do is alienate parents, for many of whom having children unable to go to school for a day or more is a serious inconvenience.

It is those parents who I would have to face up to on the day after the strike and say 'I'm sorry, I believe that the level of my pension [parent thinks 'I would be so lucky to have a pension, let alone be concerned about how much it is'] is more important than the fact that you had to take a day off work that you can ill afford as your boss is currently laying off people and you think you might be next / that day's work = food on the table for the next two days'.

If the unions were as quick to strike about issues that affect children's education as they are about issues that affect their members' pay packets, I would find it much easier to justify. 'I know that it was difficult for you because your child couldn't come to school - but the government has cut funding for his speech and language therapy and his 1 to 1 TA and we felt that we all had to make a stand against it'.

You may feel differently, if you work in a different type of school with a different type of parent. I am just explaining my views.

I see that point but pensions is a last straw sort of issue. Arguably, the unions are striking against cuts in general and these affect everybody.

And, if lack of a decent pension scheme means less teachers enter the profession, more quit and more are forced to work until they're 68 it will affect pupils and their parents too.

You can't live your life by always comparing it to people who are worse off or where does it end? Oh, no I don't mind teaching classes of 35 because there are teachers in 3rd world countries teaching classes of 50? Oh, that's right you can freeze my salary for the next 10 years because some people aren't getting a salary at all?

You may feel different if you were a single person and facing hardship in your retirement

I'm not getting the need to feel guilty. Teachers work hard in public service. They earn less than any other graduate-only profession. Teachers did not cause the global recession. Soon teachers will be entering the workforce (if they're luck enough to get jobs) with £30,000+ of debt. The pensions scheme is self-sustaining.

Why is it that bankers can continue to get paid massive bonuses but TEACHERS are the ones who are supposed to feel bad for wanting to keep the pensions that were agreed in 2006 and which may have been one of the things that attracted them to the profession?

I'm a little puzzled by this 'graduate-only profession' comparison - there are surely too few of those for valid comparison (doctors and vets being the only other two I can think of, as law and accountancy are both open to non-graduates working their way up, as I think is architecture - and all of those require very significant post-graduate study)?

A comparison that said 'teachers earn in the lowest 10% of all graduates' or whatever would at least be meaningful. I have tried to find a dataset which would tell me whether this is true, both early and later on in their career - can anyone point me to one?

Banking
Accounting
Actuaries
Management
Pharmacists
Insurance
PENSIONS
Engineering
Nursing
Human Resources
IT
Consultancy

"Teachers earn less than any other graduate only profession."

No they don't - trying being a librarian!! Actually, I support teachers on this thread, but don't trot out that old argument - it's not true!

I don't feel guilty that I am in a job, and many people are not. I do not feel guilty about the amount I get paid, as I work very hard for it and certainly much harder than I did when working as a management trainee on exactly the same salary as my first job in 1994. I do not believe that I should teach a class of 50 (I do teach a class of 38 for several hours a week so the 35 comparison isn't appropriate) just because it is the norm elsewhere in the world, because it would adversely affect the children I teach, which is after all the point.

I would feel guilty about striking about my future pension, when even the revised version is not something I could obtain (in terms of benefits acciued per year I work until I retire) had I returned to work in a new role the private sector rather than as a teacher.

I agree TUD, I earn a fraction of what I did when I worked in the private sector but do not consider myself underpaid at all.

Banking - not graduate only
Accounting - ditto, possible to obtain accountancy qualifications through courses taken while working.
Actuaries - don't know, suspect the same as accountancy
Management - no, especially not in industry / manufacturing. Often a route through from shop floor to management in big firms
Pharmacists - yes, that makes a list of 3
Insurance - I sincerely doubt that everyone working in insurance is a graduate
PENSIONS - suspect this is like accounting
Engineering - not graduate only, though degree required for some levels
Nursing - same as engineering
Human Resources - depends on the job, but certainly not graduate only
IT - no, many people learn on the job and are taken on as school leavers
Consultancy - depends on the sector and route in. Some consultants are university-of-life and long experience, others do join 'management consultancy' firms and yes these are mainly graduates and many will have MBAs.

Since when was a librarian a graduate only profession?

Job advert - the first one I googled only wants 5 GCSEs.

Range of typical starting salaries: £19,427 - £23,473 (slightly more for academic librarians - considerably more for legal librarians)
It is possible to earn around £36,000 plus in senior management posts in large authorities. CILIP recommends a head of service salary of £49,000 plus (salary data collected Aug 09).

I think that's the point, Feenie, there are only a very small number of professions that absolutely require a degree (teaching, pharmacy, medicine, dentistry (though not dental nurses / hygeinists) and vets).

Salary comparison between teaching and these others is meaningless because they are so different. Pharmacy is probably the closest in terms of 'years of study needed to qualify to work' but a comparison of 1 just isn't sensible.

Anyone out there got better salary comparison data for graduates as a whole?

My cousin is a "graduate" academic librarian and earns slightly less than I do (but I'm SMT and have a TLR)

I agree TUD, I earn a fraction of what I did when I worked in the private sector but do not consider myself underpaid at all.

As the main household earner, desperatelyseekingsnoozes?

I am not the main household earner but could be very easily

I work with lots of other teachers who are the main household earners and they all seem to have very nice lifestyles.

If money matters to you it is easy to earn more money as a teacher. I have only been teaching about six years and earn around 40K, above the national average.

Strictly speaking teacherwith2kids teaching doesn't require a degree if you are employed in PVI or FE

Really? Tell me how, please.

As the main household wage, it's fine. With another £100 a month knocked off it won't be great, particularly when a second £100 is knocked off DH's salary (which is considerably less than mine, as an FE teacher).

desperatelyseekingsnoozes how many jobs do you have to earn £40K?

A teacher's starting salary is much less at £21,588

I am a head of faculty.

I am sure I started in more than 21,588, but I could be wrong.

That is the salary from Sept 2010 in state schools