Why don't we attach higher status to drive and tenacity in schools?

[Cortina]

Why don't we attach higher status to drive and tenacity in our schools? This is one of the questions that I've sent in for Matthew Syed on the secondary thread and will be very interested in his answer, if he chooses it to answer (there are quite a few)! :) I am posting here as I thought it would be interesting to see what others think.

A 'lazy', 'bright' child that wins a place at a selective school may not gain as much from the experience over time as an industrious but less 'bright' child.
I am always curious why this isn't considered in part when children sit the 11 plus. I don't think it is? I've found that an industrious, slow starter can morph into a knowledge-hungry, reasonably capable, late developer.

The child with a good work ethic, as suggested above, can beat the innately clever in exams. There have been studies that prove this I believe.

Yet we talk disparagingly about 'plodders' and most would choose to be a 'hare' rather than a 'tortoise'. If teachers etc talk about a child that 'tries hard' this is usually code for 'not terribly bright'. Perhaps you think we do attach status to children that 'try hard'?

Whilst it is a well worn cliche on MN that all selective schools are brimming with over tutored kids (ie ones who did a lot of work preparing) that are failing, there is actually no evidence whatsover that this is true.

Indeed, I have a (more than) sneaking suspicion that selective schools are perfectly content to have kids on board who will put in the graft. Teaching bright but lazy kids must be bloody sapping.

Most selective independent schools interview prospective pupils too and request copies of school reports. The HTs I've spoken to are very honest about the fact that they are looking for bright enough kids who will apply themselves and they can't be discovered by an entrance examination alone.

As for who gets across the message that raw intellect, talent, beauty etc is worth precisely fuck all without application...well it's us innit.

Schools probably do their best, but it's we parents who can make the real difference. We can tell our children what can be achieved and improved by hard graft, but more importantly we have to model it.

We have to show them every day that we stretch ourselves and be the best that we can be. That we tackle things that are well out of our comfort zone. That we find things hard but do them anyway, or at least try to.

I know that our grammar used to ask for a headteacher's report from each 11+ applicant's school with the main purpose being whether or not the child did have an appropriate capacity for hard work. These can no longer be requested under the Admissions Code because they can't be shown to be objective.

There has to be recognition for both hard work and actual achievement. Primary schools reward academic achievement far too little in this country and those who are academic (whether accompanied by hard graft or not) must have this recognised at secondary school. Effort grades should be given and rewarded separately. Obviously there will be overlap, but the two must be considered separately for any reward system to make sense. And a good school will make clear that the effort grades are crucial.

I have a ds who was considered by his primary school to be a slow burner, plodder. He had a lot of illness, absence from school in year 5. In year 6 he woke up, suddenly progressed well.We decided to put him up for the selective catholic boys grammar school.He failed part of the exam, saw the head who in his opinion said he was not academic, the GS would be too fast paced for him. His artistic side would be better suited to the local comp. Appealing would be a waste of time. His form teacher had a different opinion , gave us a supporting letter and we won our appeal. He was a 4b in Maths and a 4a in lang and a 5c in science at the time. A 3b in maths at the end of year 5. He is now in year 9, an AI student, in the top set for maths, he has had excellant reports from year 7. A boy from his primary school considered to be gifted, was expelled in year 8, because he did not toe the line.
My dd is the same,a slow burner. we appealed for the all girls GS for her , unfortunately lost the appeal.Her form teacher said she is a hard worker, always does her best, a role model to others for her behaviour and attitude to school.She is a 4A/5c. Ok won't set the world on fire, but she will given the time. Children develop at different rates,my son is proof of that. She will do the 12 + as she is determined to get the school she wants.Peoples's opinion of late developer's going to a GS is that they will always struggle, be in the bottom set. This is not always the case, a child can only improve given the opportunity and especially when they want to work and are keen to do well. Interesting subject.

Yellowstone, that's a shame. One would hope schools could be trusted.
As our HT said, his reputation for honesty precedes him. There would be nothing in it for him to lie to get a pupil into a school for which they were not suitable as the following year his word would no longer count for anything.

Acanthus - do primary schools really not reward academic achievemnet. Admittedly I only have any day to day experience of my DC's primary school, but there were spelling tests, tables tests aplenty. And bi- yearly exams in all subjects from year four onwards. Those pupils who did well (either by hard graft, raw intellect, or a happy combination of the two) received regualr feedback.

I have a ds who was considered by his primary school to be a slow burner, plodder. He had a lot of illness, absence from school in year 5. In year 6 he woke up, suddenly progressed well.We decided to put him up for the selective catholic boys grammar school.He failed part of the exam, saw the head who in his opinion said he was not academic, the GS would be too fast paced for him. His artistic side would be better suited to the local comp. Appealing would be a waste of time. His form teacher had a different opinion , gave us a supporting letter and we won our appeal. He was a 4b in Maths and a 4a in lang and a 5c in science at the time. A 3b in maths at the end of year 5. He is now in year 9, an AI student, in the top set for maths, he has had excellant reports from year 7. A boy from his primary school considered to be gifted, was expelled in year 8, because he did not toe the line.
My dd is the same,a slow burner. we appealed for the all girls GS for her , unfortunately lost the appeal.Her form teacher said she is a hard worker, always does her best, a role model to others for her behaviour and attitude to school.She is a 4A/5c. Ok won't set the world on fire, but she will given the time. Children develop at different rates,my son is proof of that. She will do the 12 + as she is determined to get the school she wants.Peoples's opinion of late developer's going to a GS is that they will always struggle, be in the bottom set. This is not always the case, a child can only improve given the opportunity and especially when they want to work and are keen to do well. Interesting subject.

tigtink - in Outliers by Malcolm Gladwell he mentions a school in one of the worst areas of NYC. 90% of its students get free school meals. It is completly non-selective.
The results this school achieves are nothing short of miraculous.

How? By asking a huge amount of hard graft from each and every pupil. Pupils know full well it is going to be shedloads of work but are desperate to attend.
The vast majority do extremely well whatever their raw intellect. They achieve their potential and more.

This is really interesting as this pretty much describes my DH. Sorry haven't read the whole thread. At school he was pretty much labelled the 'trier' and basically told not to bother trying too hard as there was no point. As it turns out he actually had undiagnosed dyslexia and was a stubborn b*stard to boot! So when it came to it he was one of the few people from his year to go to university. He got an MA and an MPhil from a prestigious university and is successful in his chosen field. He refused to bow down to the dismissal of the teachers - incredibly strong for a teenager really.

Last night I attended a meeting at my childrens prep school and the Head was explaing how the grading systems works from Y3. I was really impressed with what she said, she mentioned that they grade from A to E but emphasis on the the Effort score which is 1 to 5.

For example an A student who gets A5 is not working to his maximum potential and they are looking for him to get at least A2 or if you are a C grade then you should be getting a C1 etc.

I feel this is really great because it shows you are doing your best, using all the resources around you and it gives a kick in the bottom to any slackness.

Not sure if this already happens in the state sector so forgive me if I have rambled on!

She also said that, she will be very honest in telling you wether your child should do the 11+ !

wordfactory, you are right, i know my dd will do well whatever school she goes to. She wants to work and given the right encouragement will achieve her potential. All schools regardless of their status should insist on commitment and hard work from their pupils, it just that some schools are better than others.

If I may be a little harsh, I would add that the students who never get anywhere are the students who sit down and blame others- parents, teachers, peers- for failing to motivate them. Yes, they may well be right, and it is very unfair, but concentrating on the unfairness really doesn't get you anywhere.

And then you see others who have battled against enormous odds- hostile unengaged parents, chronic illness, rotten schools, moderate talent- and are still able to rise above it. Whatever it is these people have got, I wish I could give it to the rest. And have some myself .

But failing that, a good school and encouraging parents are obviously good things to have. And if you can only have the one, then I personally would go for the parents.

one problem about effort grades is that they are very subjective: it's about the teacher's perception, so can easily become about how the teacher feels about this particular child- have seen some odd effort grades on report cards of dcs and friends

dd gets an A for attitude in PE- she hasn't taken part in PE for 4 years (disability); the truth is that her cheerful attitude springs entirely from the fact that she never liked PE in the first place and doesn't feel she is missing anything

otoh she gets a low effort mark (but good attainment results) in RS, where she does at least do the work and as far as I can see does make an effort

'What if she was bright, or through hard work became bright - another way of looking at a late-developer?' I was teaching her at AS level, so she was near as far as I could see, her academic potential at that point.

Interesting about effort and attainment grades. My ds got A*5 in history and yet the teacher never bothered to motivate him because he could do it without effort and this teacher was his HoY as well. I was unamused by the effort grade and the attitude of the teacher in question

wordfactory I don't think the issue is/ was with the honesty of headteachers. The difficulty I believe was that parents could claim these reports not to be objective - endless appeals. It is a shame.

Cory - I think the KIPP school proved your point. The vast majority of students are disadvantaged many terms but they all want to be there.

They know it will be killer hours and masse of homework yet they travel miles to get there. They could all do as their peers do and attend the local school.

Squidg, that is the overriding attitude of his school, and there are a few teachers there whom I rate and will kick him on the effort, but not many. I sometimes wish I'd left him in the UK and sent him to board, rather than move him here.

Interesting my DD went to a selective private girls school, prizes were always for attainment. My DS goes to a non-selective private co ed school and prizes up until the 6th form are only for academic effort. One of the criteria too for prefect selection was also academic effort. So can't fault that!
I think effort should always be commended. Different DC though suit different schools. So maybe the perfect school would have a combination of both systems. Schools and DCs in the perfect world should I believe should always be aiming to realise potential and realistically aiming to get as close as possible! That way they can all be proud of their achievements!
I feel sorry for the girl Scary you weren't allowed to award the prize to. What a shame there wasn't flexibility in the system that year to award an additional prize.

One of my DCs is at a very high-achieving grammar school. Every report has marks for both effort and achievement in each subject and while obviously we?d like them to do well we?re more concerned that sufficient effort is being put in .

We also had a presentation from the school (with stats and graphs) showing that there was no direct correlation between 11+ scores and GCSE results 4-5 years later. The strong implication was that the harder the DCs worked, the better their results were likely to be?

Good growth mindset stuff Mattilie, 'you can improve', this is what I like to hear. Previous Govt reports have suggested that those who do well academically early on are being 'failed' by schools if they don't get the top grades going forward.