Teachers -AIBU?

[Minx179]

In expecting DS's teachers not to cheat help him in his GCSE's coursework/exams?

Is unreasonable 'help' ever justified and is it fair on him and the other children who don't get this level of 'help'

I think there urgently needs to be an SEN specialism in Initial Teacher Training.

Most SENCos have had to learn on the job, ditto most SEN teachers- some study at masters level, but they are the few- how on earth can we rely on relatively untrained (and quite often excellent, despite lack of training) teachers to adequately provide for children with Additional Needs?

And don't get me started on the actual measures of progress and success; both the school's and the child's...

Ginger - I wish I could be surprised by all those terrible things you just listed :(

Elsie - yes, some parents do have a hard time hearing. So I guess that does contribute to teachers being reluctant to tell the truth.

And yes, even a school with a good SENCO can't achieve very much.

The problem is not just funding. Although that is a large part of it.

But it costs nothing to tell the truth, to admit you're wrong, to expect a child to learn, to be sympathetic, to understand (at least a bit) the SN of the kids you are teaching...., to talk to the parents......

Lack of communication and lowering expectations are also a huge part of the problem....

:(

Gingeroots - I am horrified by many things you have said in your post, but the chair thing is truly shocking!

Tethersend, maybe as well as training teachers better we might consider also having schools that specialise in SEN? We could call them.... special schools, maybe?

I'm dubious about 'inclusion' for children with major learning difficulties of various kinds. My daughter has Asperger's and coped all right in a mainstream school, but she is at the very high-functioning end of the spectrum. I shudder to think how badly she would have fared if her difficulties had been greater. Her biggest difficulties early in secondary school were social and she got reasonably good support there but nobody ever mentioned academic difficulties. They seemed to think she was doing as well as she could, and certainly her coursework grades were OK.

However, when it came to her first experience of intensive exams (year 11 mocks) it was a different story. One teacher immediately suggested that maybe there were grounds for applying for her to get extra time in exams but when we talked to the SENCO about this she brushed it aside - too late, no grounds. We (stupidly) accepted this and her GCSE results were a bit disappointing.

When her AS results were not just disappointing but worrying, we had another look at the report we'd been given when she was diagnosed some years earlier. We'd given copies of this report to her primary school, her first secondary school and the school she moved to for sixth form. Not one of the SENCOs had read it, I assume, as the last part of the report stated quite clearly that test results indicated that she might have cognitive difficulties which would affect how she did in exams.

We are so annoyed with ourselves for not taking this in at the time and particularly for not going back to this report to check after being fobbed off the year before. However, what's done is done and so we got an ed psych report (which we had to pay for ourselves) which finally got her the extra time in exams etc she needed to show what she could do.

I think she was let down, and I have every sympathy for people whose children have far bigger problems than my daughter. It seems to be a complete lottery whether they get adequate support or not.

Thank you for all the responses and support, I didn't expect quite so many.

DS has SEN. School cheated with EMS results end of KS3, they use FFT data from the upper end, so DS's targets have always been highly aspirational.

The lesson was English Lit, it was an English HTLA that took him out and told him what to write; so should know the regulations. I have written to the HOD English for an explanation. Exec Head and head of school will be aware, as they have been significantly involved in much of the crap practice; withholding teachers concerns, malpractice etc.

I reported the school to AQA in Feb re cheating in his English Lang, they said there was insufficient evidence. Not helped by the fact that DS always gets a laptop for coursework write ups and exams, which makes it easier to make alterations.

What frustrates me is that we had a meeting with the exec head, head and HOD English Oct 10, regarding a reduced curriculum. He doesn't need one 'wait until after mocks we'll look again'.

Feb 11 informed by HOY he has been withdrawn from Eng Lit exam, queried why he was sat doing lesson not doing exam. School offered 1-1 provision for other course work, exam techniques. Queried this and the offer was retracted. A teacher on TES ended up answering most my questions.

Put in an FOI for teachers feedback dated Oct 10 and Jan 11, received that for Jan, but not Oct. All teacher info/concerns had been withheld. Found out DS had been removed from Eng Lit some 6 weeks earlier.

Letter to Gov Body for a number of issues, further FOI request for Oct feedback - English teacher knew in Oct that he was going to struggle with Lit. However, Exec head, head, HOD English failed to mention this at the October meeting. HOD English emailed me Nov 10 to tell me his teacher said he was coping, doing well.

Letter to HOD to see DS's coursework; which probably contributes to why he had to do it on Tuesday as my meeting was on Wednesday.

Governing body appear to be backing the head, in that I'm just an unreasonable parent, school have been supporting my son, senior management have been actively involved etc.

So thanks for reinforcing that I'm not unreasonable.

Oh wow minx that is all so absolutely crap - but sadly I'm not surprised .
So sorry I can't think of anything constructive to add .
Except - well done you for all your efforts ,you're a thorn in their flesh ,might make them think twice about their practices ,or lack of it .

So it's the TA, not the actual teacher that you think was unprofessional?

I'm not condoning malpractice but I do think it's important to look at this sort of thing from the point of view of teachers and schools. Schools are put under enormous pressure to achieve good results. At the end of the day their future success is dependent on their perceived success and this becomes a vicious or virtuous circle. A school's position in the league tables affects everything from reputation to numbers to funding to teachers' jobs. Of course, this pressure is transferred to departments and teachers will have departmental and individual targets. There is an element of performance related pay in schools and again, in the current climate, jobs are at stake. Schools have to justify their results and value added to OFSTED as well as parents and have to defend their results in self-assessment. I don't think you can understand these pressures unless you have lived with them and they will vary from year to year and from school to school.

Added to this is the pressure from parents and students themselves. In my experience it is much more typical for all of these sources - parents, teachers, colleagues, SMT, governors - to complain about lack of support rather than the sort of excessive support being described here. Equally, teachers want students to receive the best possible results to help improve their future opportunities.

And questions are asked when students don't meet targets.

My job as a teacher depends on the results my students get. I am on a temporary contract and if I don't get the results that the head wants then my job won't be renewed.

I think things like this make teachers do anything they can to get results.

That's a terrible account of malpractice, Minx. I hope you can take your complaints further, the governing body don't seem to be listening but I wonder if you can take it to a higher level?

I agree with LondonMother and Indigo that most mainstream schools simply can't meet the needs of pupils with SEN. DS was failed badly at a mainstream secondary until I pushed the LEA to fund a private special school, which has taught him up to GCSE level but also teaches life skills and social skills.

They are scrupulous in sticking to exam rules because they know that the students will be expected to put skills into practice in the real world and their main concern is to prepare students for life in the real world, rather than pushing up league table rankings. Instead of focusing on extra time and readers in exams, they teach organisational skills and exam strategies which means that they'll be able to use those skills when they go on to college and university.

Body of Eyeore - Can/would the TA take a child out of class and do coursework which should have been done in Dec 10 without the knowledge and say so of the teacher, or HOD? This is coursework which I was informed was up to date in Feb 11.

Five candles - I have tried to gain an understanding of the pressures teachers are under to meet targets. Not just the pressure that arise within the immediate classroom, but on the wider scale such as you have outlined. On the whole I admire teachers for working in the educational environment with the hours and pressures it entails. I'm also aware that it is easier to blame everything on 'crap' teachers and tweak the edges of the system (not necessarily for the better) rather than addressing the inherent failures within the system.

I can trace the problems we have with 'malpractice' back to KS1 when DS allegedly obtained L2's across the board, we moved school and informed he was an N in subjects, but as a child can't go backwards or remain static...., as you say, teachers are under pressure to show progression.

I don't think I'm totally unreasonable or unaware on that front, but I have to disagree on your description of excessive support, in that it is excessive for the wrong reasons, nor is it support.

I feel DS's school is focussed in entirely the wrong direction ie trying to prevent me from having an accurate idea of how DS's learning difficulties impact on him educationally, rather than engaging with me, being open about his educational difficulties and how we can best support him at home which may have a positive impact educationally. Instead the pressures you allude to above make DS 'not worth it' because he won't help the teachers attain their CPD or the school their targets.

On a personal level I would rather have been told your DS is predicted F/G, but he could maybe ensure he gets an 'F' by, or attempt to get an E by x,y,z, rather than your DS is predicted D's and will we get that or at least an E, even if it means we have to do some manipulation to do it.

Minx, I'm just trying to understand your position here purely out of interest so please don't be offended.

I can see why you would be offended if teachers were misleading you about your son's abilities i.e. saying he can do things when he can't but I'm not sure I understand why you object to them helping him to get better exam results than he might be capable of indepedently.

On the scale of things I wouldn't have thought there's a huge difference between an E or a D except obviously the D looks a bit better.

Why wouldn't you want him to get the better grade? Doesn't stop you and his teachers continuing to help him improve his skills?

What I'm getting it is that exam results are only ever going to be a snapshot and not always accurate of a student's ability anyway so I'm not sure that helping him to get a higher grade is at odds with helping him improve his skills IYSWIM.

And a certain amount of massaging of grades is going to be going on at every level especially at the D/C borderline.

Whether by teachers or parents.

Five Candles - I'm not offended.

It is not that I wouldn't want DS to get a better grade, of course I would, but I don't want DS getting grades that he has no chance of meeting if left to his own devices and potentially ending up at college doing a course which is going to be too academic for him (L2) rather than being allowed to do a (L1) course which may well suit his needs better.

DS has over the years gradually got into the mentality that if he can't do it the teachers or TA's will, because that is what has always happened. They do it because to him he is a failure (his words not mine). Which makes it an uphill struggle for us to engage DS or get him to work/work independently (it has a social impact as well). Writing down/telling a child what to write/or altering their work goes beyond scaffolding, and supporting nor does it help him improve his skills, especially if he is not made aware that the alterations have taken place or why.

From the schools perspective it is probably easier to add in a couple of sentences/punctuation marks/solve the maths problem etc to boost the grade rather than re-teach/over learn, because teachers don't have the time (back to the internal/external pressure on teachers/schools again).

Exams/tests are a snap shot, one moment in time that can be adversely affected by a number of issues uncontrollable by the individual or the school. However, if the school(s) continually prevent failure in end of module/unit tests and eventually exams, what lesson does the child learn? How do they cope with failure if they are not allowed to fail, or fail beyond a certain point? How do they learn to adapt and overcome any setbacks if somebody is there, not to support and guide, but cover up and mask the errors?

As a child, parent or teacher how can you celebrate/recognise the small or large advances the child makes if you can't say, because you had been pressured months ago into signing off that the child did that particular thing months/years ago?

I don't think I've explained that very well, but I hope you have the gist.

A question for you

Why would a school remove a child from an exam in which the school are predicting an E? An E may not be in the magical A*-C bracket, but to all intents and purposes an 'E' is still considered a pass and a reasonable one in some schools.

I'm not sure that helping him to get a higher grade is at odds with helping him improve his skills

Ummmm. I'm in a similar position, but with a much younger DD. And I find this attitude totally disturbing.

Like Minx I'm fighting to get school to tell me accurate info about DDs grades (which would entail them admitting she has made no progress in 2 years) And like Minx (but not to such an extreme extent) DD is given too much support in class.

For example last week for her written assesment a TA scribed her test for her. There is nothing physically wrong with her ability to write - the problem is her ability to spell. So how does scribing for a child in a writing exam teach the child anything (or measure)? All it does is help the teacher 'show progress' - which hasn't actually been made.

All I care about is DD actually learning how to read and write. And this is what school needs to teach her. I don't care one bit about her ability to speak. I already know she can do that..... But school would rather assess her ability to speak, then teach her to write :(

"It is not that I wouldn't want DS to get a better grade, of course I would, but I don't want DS getting grades that he has no chance of meeting if left to his own devices and potentially ending up at college doing a course which is going to be too academic for him (L2) rather than being allowed to do a (L1) course which may well suit his needs better. "

MInx : Yes, this can be the case, and I would take your point. I am often presented with pupils who are not A level material and who I am expected to teach to that level and it dalls to me eventually to deliver the bad news to the parent - that which they would not say earlier.

Teachers are under pressure to get grades and schools need to show not only performance in league tables but to meet a target on A - C and A - G grades ( and D and E show better than G or even F). We all know students move up through the exam system unable to do what they should because of this.

It also sometimes ends in tragedy in some respects because of different pressures at FE level. There teachers are paid by number of students recruited and number retained as well as exam passes. The pressure now is on high level passes and I have witnessed perfectly nice if a little less able students be on courses almost until the end of the year when the college then remove or the drop out them because they wont pass the exam. The college / school want passes and at that point they know the pupil will not make it but they have still got the money for recruitment and retention by then. Its tragic because had the pupil been better advised and placed
(and had the GCSE reflected their ability) it would not happen.

So I can fully sympathise with what you are saying. But many parents and teachers will not agree.

If you go down the route of reporting the school it could have more further repercussions on all the pupils , not just deal with the issues for your own DC. The school may loose its status as an exam centre ( which is why even AQA are reluctant to listen, they dont want that) and all pupils could have their exam results nullified. You will not be winning any miss popularity contests either. Just to let you know. Its a difficult problem because the practice is so ingrained in the system now. Most schools I would venture wouldnt make any of their targets without this kind of supporting process.

By the way, I should clarify before I am jumped on. In FE ?sixth form funding is via numbers on roll for each course. The money is divided into parts - recruitment, retention and then a bonus at the end for target results. This encourages the institutions to try and keep students until they have the maximum funding.

It impacts on teachers in that roll and class numbers is reflected in staffing levels. No pupils ( students) no jobs.

Jabed Teachers are under pressure to get grades and schools need to show not only performance in league tables but to meet a target on A - C and A - G grades ( and D and E show better than G or even F). We all know students move up through the exam system unable to do what they should because of this.

All the policy and educational documents I have read find that schools that involve parents in their child?s education:
increase children's self-esteem
improves children's academic achievement
improves parent-child relationships
helps parents develop positive attitudes towards school

Actively failing to inform parents of their child's educational attainment/area of difficulties, IMO will not only have a negative impact on the child and parent/school relations, but it must help to create even more pressure placed on the individual teacher(s), as you say progress must be shown, but you have to do this without engaging with the parents who may be able to provide additional help/support/reinforcement for the child, which in turn may help you achieve your own targets.

Jabed ^It also sometimes ends in tragedy in some respects because of different pressures at FE level. There teachers are paid by number of students recruited and number retained as well as exam passes. The pressure now is on high level passes and I have witnessed perfectly nice if a little less able students be on courses almost until the end of the year when the college then remove or the drop out them because they wont pass the exam. The college / school want passes and at that point they know the pupil will not make it but they have still got the money for recruitment and retention by then. Its tragic because had the pupil been better advised and placed
(and had the GCSE reflected their ability) it would not happen.^

You have probably explained there why DS1's friend has just been booted out of college, despite spending a lot of time since September trying to get help for herself with the coursework. However even here there are inconsistencies within the same college, a friends DD went from a Level 1 ADSAN to a Level 3 course (no idea how), the teacher told her parents within a matter of weeks that she was on the wrong course, but the college allowed her to just focus on the practical aspect of the course and focus on building her functional skills rather than the courses written requirements for the first year, she is now redoing the course, but college are increasing the theoretical content. I presume the level of engagement by the parents/attitude of the child can have an impact on the colleges decision whether to help or not?

Jabed So I can fully sympathise with what you are saying. But many parents and teachers will not agree.

I can understand parents not agreeing to an extent, perhaps out of ignorance of the system, but I'm not so sure about teachers, at least on a personal level. I only base this on what I've read and the support and advice I've received from teachers/ex teachers/educational professionals over the years, that has helped me tackle the issues in DS's school(s), or highlight areas to research.

Jabed I don't think any parent wants the school to cheat to get somebody else's kid marks he doesn't deserve....

And I don't think any teacher will admit to wanting to cheat.....

And I don't believe most schools cheat to the extent we are talking about here (getting a TA to dictate coursework so that a student achieves a level D)

It just makes no sense. Schools are mainly judged on their A-C levels. Very few people care how many Ds a school got.....

Can I just share a related story from my perspective as a teacher?

A Level student in my subject is very very weak. In the first term of L6, his teacher flagged up that he was not capable of studying the subject at this level and was going to struggle terribly. He continued with the course. He gained an E at AS, after which we flagged up again that he would find A2 very very demanding. He continued with the course. We have tried to teach him to the very best of our ability but he just does not have the capacity to cope with the ideas we are discussing or the independent study required.

At the last parents' evening, his mother complained to me and my colleague because we were refusing to accept coursework from him which we knew he had plagiarised, saying that all schools helped students to cheat and we were disadvantaging her son by not doing so

Coursework is notoriously problematic because it's so easy to overstep the boundary of what is acceptable help and there's actually considerable pressure to do it for schools, teachers, parents and students.

This has been recognized and it's why coursework is being phased out/removed altogether. Unfortunately, I think controlled assessment doesn't get rid of these problems it just changes them.

With this in mind I'm still trying to understand your view point.

I absolutely agree that you wouldn't want teachers to overhelp with coursework at the expense of actually teaching him.

But I'm not sure that getting a Grade E instead of an F or even a Grade D over a Grade E is necessariyl going to make a big difference as to how you, your son, an FE college, teacher or future employer perceives your son's abilities is it?

I'm also not sure what the advantage would be of letting a student fail. I am not necessarily of the school that says it would teach them a lesson if the lesson is not one from which they can learn anything useful.

If a student fails because they've been lazy and it's spurs them on to resit and then get a grade A or even a grade C then that's one thing. If a student fails and then gives up or if a student is never going to be able to get more than an E then that's another.

But the thing about coursework is that it's only ever a small percentage of a whole exam anyway. The stats for the whole qualification takes into account the fact that studetns are likely to do better on coursework and even where coursework is A grade the student can't get A grade overall unless they are successful in exams.

Indigobell,

I dont think any teacher deliberately " cheats" with coursework. The pressure to " support" as much as possible is very great and I think that sometimes ( if not more often) teachers fall into the trap of believing they are supporting when in fact they have moved into muddy territory between support and cheating and can be accused of the latter.

I dont have coursework in my subject anymore and to be honest that is a God send because I dont have the pressure. I changed to a non courseowrk exam before coursework was removed from all specifications in my subject because of the pressures and my own refusal to be drawn beyond what I thought was reasonable support. I know the pressure because parents, senior management and pupils all know that they can improve their exam grades this way.

Five Candles If a student fails because they've been lazy and it's spurs them on to resit and then get a grade A or even a grade C then that's one thing. If a student fails and then gives up or if a student is never going to be able to get more than an E then that's another.

English teacher feedback Oct 10. (I obtained this feedback earlier this week, but only after a second FOI request)

X is working hard on his work, but his progress is minimal. He hasn't acted on advice (I'm not sure he can - all targets have gone out the window)

DS just scraped a GCSE D with English Language exam. Predicting an E with outside chance of a D for lit.

External teacher (teaching same exam board) ? Three pieces of cse wk for lit. Two cross over pieces from English, third response to post 1914 play. Most classes would have completed coursework (Feb). Explanation of the poems used, what is required from the child. Explanation of why DS may struggle with lit ? use of literal language, understanding of characters emotional responses (she was spot on, DS to a T). Children may be removed if they have genuine difficulty responding to literature, gave examples.

End Feb 11- after three written requests for the teacher feedback HOY had at meeting I discovered DS has done no written work/cse work for some time, the school had made the decision to take him out of the lit exam sometime late Dec/early Jan. I was only given this information once the school had withdrawn the offer of additional support for DS.

After he'd been re-entered for exam DS was informed he had coursework to catch up on. Bunked off English lesson next day due in part to this, and he doesn't want to do English, he was told same day he doesn't have Lit coursework/write ups to do .

March 11. DS's opinion of English Lit given for a Pupil Participation form:

It's shit. I have no idea what is being said. I don't even get it. I haven't been asked if I understand it. I don't write much. A TA tells me what to write. Don't want to do lesson.

April 11 - English mocks DS has an E for Mice and Men question and poetry, DS states he hasn't written all of the example given by his teacher in the poetry question:
'The phrase 'the heart that b-b-breaks' emphasises that not only the heart breaks, but also the brain starts to not function properly, it also sounds like she's crying' . What is the point of altering a mock paper? If a school alters mock papers whose to say they don't alter the exam paper. Or will they alter the mock papers to show progression, then DS 'fail's' the exam?

April 11 - Ask to see DS's coursework, the day before I'm due to see it, DS comes home telling me that he has used a computer in English and was told what to write!

SENCO (also English teacher) suggested last week that 'lots of children find Lit easier than language that's probably why he has the same prediction So if he finds Lit easier (which he doesn't) why did the school remove him from the exam. (Headbang).

'The phrase 'the heart that b-b-breaks' emphasises that not only the heart breaks, but also the brain starts to not function properly, it also sounds like she's crying' . What is the point of altering a mock paper?

I teach and I can tell you, we basically write their GCSE coursework for them. EVERY SCHOOL DOES IT. I hate it. Loathe it. Kids have no critical thinking skills nowadays. I blame primary school teachers who don;t give pupils a chance to get things wrong and to learn. They are so concerned with everyone being right and equal, thy mollycoddle their thinking. By the time they get t secondary, sixth form or uni, they haven;t any skills to develop individual thought nor can they research beyond goggle. It is exceedingly depressing.

^Every school does NOT do it. I did my GCSEs last year and got very good results for my own work. At times I wished they'd write my coursework for me!
I agree otherwise though. I have a horrible suspicion that my Primary school cheated in the Year 6 SATS. It was a very good state school, outstanding results, full marks in inspections etc. but looking back, I remember the teachers acting awfully suspicious when we were doing SATS. In science I remember one of them telling people to "Have a look at that one again..." when they returned papers with wrong answers. And in the English writing section, the teacher described the paper beforehand telling us not to choose a certain thing(when we had a choice of writing different forms - story, report, newspaper article etc.) because we hadn't learnt that properly yet. I mean, it wasn't huge scale cheating or anything, but it's still awful where this mentality exists.