Sorry Appeals experts! One more question!

[bubblecoral]

You have already given me lots of advice, for which I am very grateful, but our hearing is early next week and I need you all again!

I'm the one with the ds with Aspergers that didn't get a place at grammar school. He was taken to the wrong place on the moring of the test etc etc. More details are on the last thread I started.

Anyway. I asked the school for the numbers of pupils they have in years 7 and 8, and although it took them a while, they finally told me in a letter that arrived the day before the royal wedding. But they take boarders, and they only gave me the numbers for day pupils. Even though that's not what I asked for. There are 104 day pupils in year 7 and 102 in year 8, even though they only say they offer 100 day places. There could well be less boarders than they expect though.

Not sure what to do about this. Any advice?

Also, just before I recieved the letter with the above information, it occured to me that I should get a copy of the invigilators report for the SEN room. Why I didn't think of it before, I wish I knew! I had been told on the phone when I first found out that ds hadn't been offered a place, that the test began at 9.11 on the morning of the test. I have the 11+ invitation letter stating that children should arrive in order for the test to start promptly at 8.45. I was told (and my ds confirmed) that the other children in the SEN room were waiting for ds to arrive before the test began. My biggest fear about the appeal is that the school will deny that my child was sent to the wrong room, and the only way I can vaguely prove it is to show that the test began later than it was meant to. I have nothing else to prove this happened unless ds comes with us to the hearing and tells the panel himself, or the school provide an itemised phone bill from the morning of the test.

Do you think it's worth submitting this? I only recieved the report today, and it's very messy after being photocopied and having other children's names blanked out, and it says nothing at all to indicate that ds was having problems. But that is to be expected, he has had years of practice at not drawing attention to himself, and he would not have asked for help. It did say that one of the prefects had to leave the room to get someone to stop hoovering at one point, and although I don't have any evidence to prove it, ds is quite noise sensitive, as are lots of children with AS. Also, I'm obviously concerned that it it very late to be submitting evidence. The earliest I could get it to the office is 1.00pm Friday via recorded delivery, and the hearing is Monday afternoon.

Obviously I don't want to annoy the panel by submitting late evidence, but I think this will be important if the school deny there was a problem.

Another thing that has just come about yesterday, is that my ds's primary school have sent home a plan for him, I'm assuming for SAT's, saying that his area of concern is 'stress in test situations related to emotional issues'. His target to be achieved is '1. to be able to fully demonstrate extent of knowledge in test situation' and 2. to raise self esteem and confidence in test situations'. Planned intervention is 'being placed in a small, user friendly environment where he can ask for help without embarrasment. and being aware that help is available and needs only be requested with a hand up

None of this has been given to us or used before, although I know that for his end of year test last year he was placed in a smaller room, and the form is dated 26th April.

Would this help our appeal as evidence that he was not able to perform to his best ability during the test? My feeling is that it would, I just wish it had come home sooner because again, I have the problem of submitting late evidence.

So after that much longer than expected post, what do I do?!

Thanks for reading if you got this far

You go for it and give it your best shot!

Late evidence is not ideal. The chairperson could decide to adjourn the hearing to allow the school and the panel to absorb the new evidence. Hopefully that won't happen, particularly if the two items are short.

If the school deny the problem I don't think you will have any choice but to submit the invigilator's report. You can't take your son to the appeal and it is a bit late to demand an itemised phone bill, although there is no harm in trying.

The plan from your son's school could also be useful and here you have a good reason for being late - make sure you explain this and apologise profusely.

The thing that really leaps out at me, though, is that the school has not provided the information you requested. Bluntly, I am amazed that this information isn't in their written case for the panel which you should have by now. If you submitted your question in writing, take it along to the hearing, submit it in evidence and complain that the school has failed to meet its obligation to provide answers to any reasonable question you ask to help you prepare for the appeal. Be careful, though. You don't want the appeal adjourned. You just want the panel to understand that the school hasn't been helpful. I would also ask the school how they expect the panel to judge whether or not admitting your son will cause prejudice in the absence of a statement giving the number of children in each year.

Hi prh, thanks for your reply and advice.

I'm guessing that the total number of pupils isn't in the school's evidence because elsewhere in their papers they admit to having other appeal children, thereby pusing the numbers above PAN. I suppose they don't want to draw any more attention to it than they have to, but they do say that overall the whole school already has three more students than it should have.

Do you think it would be ok to just ask the school reprasentative straight out at the hearing? And if he says a number that is over their published year group number ask 'Would you say the school has been able to manage this effectively?'

If the appeal needed to be adjourned, would that actually work against me? I don't think it would happen, as I think the extra evidence I have would be very brief, and especially if I needed to use the invigilators report, well, that is something that the school had access to long before I did. I understand that it would be a huge inconvenience to all concerned, not least the panel, but what is it that make sit such a big no no?

Ask the questions you want to at the appeal, the panel should certainly be asking about the numbers over PAN and the effects of that. You could ask what the educational achievement in the school is, knowing that it must be good and then follow up with so you have taken pupils over the admission number and your results are still excellent, why can you not take an extra pupil? It all adds to the idea of breaking down the level of prejudice to the school.
As a panel chair I would have no problem with you introducing the information that you have found on the day. It is actually all confirmatory information around the basic point that your son was sent to the wrong room when taking the test, thereby disadvantaging him. There is no reason why this should take more than 5 minutes to look at and for the school to respond to.
If the panel chair tries to be awkward and stop you submitting more information tell them that this is not acceptable and that as you have not had the opportunity to say everything that you want to, you will be reporting it to the LGO.

Thankyou Admission, it's a real comfort to know that you wouldn't mind a late submission of evidence in the circumstances. I'll just have to hope that my panel are understanding too!

I'm hoping the panel will ask all the tricky questions of the school, but I'll be ready if not!

bubblecoral,
You have to ask the questions of the LA first before the panel ask questions, so you need to get in first. a good chair will actually come back to the appealant after the panel and ask if their questions have raised any other questions from the parent but not all do that.

Thanks for that, that's good to know.

It's so hard to prepare for a hearing without knowing the little details like this. I'm not a speaker at all, well, at least not in formal situations. It really does make it difficult for nervous parents when they are up against an LA or school rep who has probably done countless appeals.

Could you tell me if the school presents their case first or if I have to please?

The school will go first, then you and the panel will ask questions. Next it is your turn to present and answer questions. Finally the school will sum up and so will you.

bubblecoral, I know what you mean about being up against an LA, but we did an appeal last year and it really wasn't like that. The school told us not to be nervous about it, or too legalistic, but that 'from the heart' was what the panel expected. Of course we did our homework, and made a good case, but everyone was kind to us, all the parents were nervous, and to be fair the school reps were very much on our side and concerned for us. The panel were professional, but sympathetic and we felt that the questions we were asked we aimed to draw out our situation, not to trip us up.

I hope all goes well for you, and that it is not as bad as you fear.

Thankyou both very much. It really helps.