More appeal questions, I've just received the papers from the other side!

[bubblecoral]

I'm appealing for a grammar school place for my ds, and I have been very lucky so far to have had some advice from prh47bridge on another thread.

But now I have had the case papers through the post from the school, and it's freaked me out a bit! I have made our case as strong as I think I can, but I know half the battle is proving that their case is not so great, and this is where I'd appreciate any advice.

As expected, they state that they simply can't accomodate an extra child, and have listed some of the problems taking an extra child would create for them. They say they don't have enough space in classrooms as there should be two students to a desk, an extra would mean a child having to sit alone and they don't have enough stations in the science labs and in the computer rooms to accomodate all children because they should be sitting in pairs. To have them sitting in threes would compromise their education. They also say that it creates more work for the teachers if they have to mark more than 28 sets of work per class, and from a pastoral care point of view, makes it harder for the teacher to get to know all the students well if there are too many. They say they have been forced to admit children on appeal previously, and that has caused problems.

My first reaction to that is that if they have gone over numbers before then the teachers should have some experience on how to deal with these things, and that it hasn't affected their results. Nor has it affected their OFSTED report as last year they got an outstanding. So to my mind, if the problems were that significant it would have been noted on the report.

Is that a valid arguement? How do I put that across without dismissing the valid concerns that the school has? I honestly don't want to put the school in a difficult position, but I do want my child to go there! Are there any other points I should be looking for or arguements I could use?

According to the papers, overall the school already has 3 more pupils than it should have.

They say they still have three places for this year, but they expect to have those places filled by the time the appeals are heard. They offer 12 places at 13+. If they really do have too many students, do they still have to offer all those places?

One of the things I would appreciate an explanation on is the situation with appeals and waiting lists. I understand from other threads on here that primary schools should not wait until appeals are heard before offering places on the waiting list. Does that go for Grammars too? If so, why is that? I understand that children on a waiting list have a right to a place as much as anyone else, but why aren't schools allowed to wait to see if they have to admit appeal children before being forced into a position where they have too many pupils? If a child has won an appeal, and knowing how hard that is to do, surely they deserve a place, but it does seem unfair as well that the school then has to be compromised. I'm not explaining myself well there, so I hope if you've got this far you know what I mean! I just don't really understand the system and why it had the rules that it does.

Thanks in advance for any responses, much appreciated!

P.S prh47bridge incase you are reading and would like a reminder of my case, I'm under a different username now. My old one was curlymama.

Schools aren't allowed to hold off filling places from the waiting list until any appeals are all completed - that's a breach of the Admissions Code. I imagine that the logic behind this is that appeals and the waiting list are two distinct things and children on the waiting list should not be 'leapfrogged' (for want if a better word) by those winning appeals. It is precisely because (as you say) that there will be some degree of compromise ('prejudice' in the language of the appeals code) that the appeal hinges on the balance of prejudice between the child and the school.

If you are going to appeal, you need (as you know) to argue that the prejudice to the school in admitting an extra pupil is not as great as the prejudice to your child in not attending the school. To be frank, I don't think you can entirely dismiss the school's concerns. There may well be (say) some safety issues in having 29 pupils in a science lab designed and equipped for 28 and likewise it's pretty obvious that there will be more for teachers to do in marking work and providing pastoral care.

I think you'll be more credible if you say that these problems should be manageable (and evidently have been managed in the past) than if you are totally dismissive. I'd be wary of saying, though, that "it must be fine because the GSCE results and OFSTED are good", because neither of these things pick up the day-to-day management problems (however big or small) that an extra pupil will create. Can you get figures for pupil turnover? It might be more helpful to your case if you can say (for argument's sake) "any problem will be short-lived because on average 4 pupils leave in year 7, so numbers will soon drop to PAN". I'm doubtful about arguing that the school should offer fewer places at 13+ to create a space for your child - not least because the extra pupil would (if you win) be in Y7 so it would be 2 years before taking one less pupil at Y9 could offset that.

At the same time, you need to demonstrate why - whatever the prejudice to the school - the prejudice to your child will be greater. Why do you consider he needs to attend this school?

I'm sure Prh47bridge and Admission will have more sage advice.

Panelmember, thankyou for your reply.

I didn't mean to come across at all like I think the school's position could be dismissed, quite the opposite is how I really feel. They have some valid points, and I feel quite guilty that I'm actually going out of my way to try and make things more difficult for the school. Their concerns are very valid and they have some excellent points, which I hadn't fully considered until I had seen their case.

I will, as you suggest, just say that the problems should be manageable. My original plan was to just say that I have no arguement with the school, as I don't really.

In brief, I want my ds to go to this school because I think it will suit him better than the local school. The local school is a good one, and I'm looking forward to ds2 going there, but it just really isn't right for my ds1. The basis of my appeal is that ds1 has aspergers, and therefore needs a high level of pastoral care which the grammar school will be better able to provide. Also, my ds didn't pass the 11+, he missed the pass mark by 4 marks. I originally thought he had missed it by 8 marks, but from the papers from the school I saw that the pass mark wasn't as high as I thought it was. On the morning of the test, he was mistakenly taken to the wrong room, he went to the main hall instead of the SEN room that he had been offered. Part of my case is that this confusion will have disruped him and caused him to be unable to fully concentrate on the exam. I have lots of evidence to back this up, as well as to show that he does need lots of support, so I just have to hope that the panel will be sympathetic.

I have tried to get information from the school about how many pupils they have in the current years 7, 8 and 9, but they have not responded to me yet. I asked when I first started putting the appeal together weeks ago, so I don't think they will be quick to tell me what the turnover is. Would it be reasonable to ask that question when I'm given the opportunity at the hearing? Or is there any other way I could get that information that you know of?

Thanks again.

Hi again.

You need to be persistent in asking the school for the information you want, as I doubt that the LEA would hold it. You could ask at the appeal hearing itself, but may then find that the school's rep says they don't know and there has to be an adjournment while they go in search of it.

And, yes, I know that you accept that the school may suffer some prejudice in admitting your child but (forgive me) sometimes on threads such as these I spell things out in huge detail in case they may help other people with other appeals.

As I said earlier, although you need to acknowledge and deal with the points the school may raise about the prejudice to the school, what is probably even more important is that you set out the prejudice to your child if he's not admitted. In particular, you need (as much as you can) to explain why the pastoral care at the preferred school will be so much better for your son. Is the preferred school a centre of excellence for support for pupils with Asperger's? Given that all schools are supposed to cater for pupils with a diversity of needs, the onus will be on you to distinguish between what's available at the preferred school and what's available at the allocated school, and explain why your son needs the former.

And thanks again for replying!

Good point about making things clear for others who may be interested, I know I've learned a lot about the whole appeals process from reading your responses on other threads.

As for proving why my son needs a place, I have pointed out some things in my written case, I haven't started on the presentation yet! I've been through the schools prospectus and OFSTED report and quoted some of the strenghts this school has, and individually given reasons why those things would be of particular benefit to my ds. I've also written about things like the school providing one tutor who will go all the way from y7 to y11, which would provide more stability for ds, as well as allowing him to form a good relationship with someone who is important to his education as he finds it hard to get to know people, and they him, because of his communication difficulties.

I haven't said anything so far about the other school, as I read on here that it wouldn't help to criticise the other school, and I honestly have nothing bad to say about the other school anyway. I have mentioned that they have twice the number of pupils in y7, meaning that it will take ds longer to find peopel with whom he can feel comfortable. Also that it is co ed, which we think will add to his social isolation when the pupils all start becoming interested in members of the opposit sex, but I have mainly concentrated on the benefits of the grammar rather than the negatives of the comp.

I've also asked the school for a copy of their bullying policy, as they have a very good reputation for dealing with bullying, and I'm worried that my son could be a target in the comp. They haven't given me that yet either though, so I have no idea how I'm supposed to evidence that or put it across as a valid concern.

I agree with everything Panelmember has said. My thoughts:

• Whilst it obviously creates more work for the teachers if there are more in the class, many teachers have to deal with classes of 30 or more so I don't personally find that aspect of the school's case particularly persuasive. Space in classrooms and workstations in science labs and computer rooms could be more persuasive depending on the actual size and layout of the rooms involved. However, I would imagine they've said this to previous appeals. Since some have succeeded it seems the panel didn't find the evidence strong enough to refuse admission. Of course, you will probably be getting a different panel who may look at things differently.

• As Panelmember says, vacancies must be filled from the waiting list as they occur. The school cannot wait until appeals are heard.

• The fact you are having difficulty getting information from the school is worrying. They are obliged to respond to any reasonable requests you make for information to help you prepare for the appeal (Admission Appeals Code paragraph 1.31). I doubt the appeal panel will be impressed if they have to adjourn the hearing because the school have fallen down on this. You won't win the appeal on this basis, of course. However, if you lose the appeal this is the kind of thing that could persuade the Local Government Ombudsman to order a fresh appeal. I hope that none of this is necessary and the school provide the information you have requested.

• I'm not sure the bullying angle will help you. If your son was already at the comp, was being bullied and they were failing to deal with it effectively it would be worth bringing up but that isn't the situation. You are dealing with possible future bullying. All schools have a policy for dealing with bullying and appeal panels are supposed to assume that all schools are equally effective. We all know that isn't true but I'm afraid that's the way it is. Don't let me stop you from bringing it up but I think the panel is likely to assume that both the grammar and the comp will be equally effective at dealing with any bullying.

Good luck with your appeal.

The schools case is very much what is the norm for any school, so I would not be put off my that. The appeal panel will also have heard it a good few times before. What they will hopefully focus on is asking the school to give more detail about the size of rooms and the usage of such rooms. If the usage is only 75% then they are not exactly full to busting are they, but if it is 90% then that is full.
I personally find it insulting that they say if there are more than 28 in the class then it is more work (or implied too much work) for the teacher. Sorry find that really annoying to suggest that the teacher cannot cope with more pupils. Ask about the pastoral care I will bet you that the teacher of each subject does not do pastoral care, it will be the form teacher or specially employed non-teaching staff. You therefore demolish that arguement for what it is, waffle.

The actual number for practical subjects like science, DT etc is now recommended as 23 not 28, so I would actually ask them to substantiate how many teaching groups they have in science and DT and what the numbers are in these teaching groups. I would also expect in most schools to see differences in numbers between classes of the less able and the most able though this may well not apply at a grammar school. It is probable that you will not win at stage 1 but you can weaken their case, which is to your advantage when you talk about the specifics of why you want your son to go to this school.
Also with your case just be careful not to introduce too much on the day or you might end up with it being adjourned because of this new information. Best bet would be to do it now and then submit to the admission authority so they can copy it to all parties. It makes no difference that they see it now rather than at the appeal. Anything else that you come up with after your submission can then be said on the day of the appeal.

I frequently taught classes of 30+, so I don't know what they are worried about.

It is common for children to sit alone - it is a useful tool in the classroom, and desks aren't always arranged so students sit in pairs - depending upon which class I was teaching I would have a horseshoe, or two to a desk, or a 2,4,2 configuration. What do they do if a child is away? Not teach, as they won't all be in pairs?

Just a thought but have you contacted the school office or the Heads of Year direct for information about how many are in their year groups at present? Looking at the school website may give you the individual contact details.

I'm not sure how far you can go without prejudicing your appeal but it may also be worth contacting the Head of Science to enquire about how the department coped in the labs when there were additional pupils previously.

FWIW, a lot of secondary schools try to keep a single form tutor with the tutor group throughout their time at the school but the school cannot prevent teachers from leaving/being promoted to SLT, both of which would throw a spanner in the works.

What does the grammar school do that the local comp doesn't that will particularly support your DS with his communication difficulties? Do they use visual timetables? A buddy system? Are there established social skills/communication groups that would cater for his needs? Are the classrooms vastly different in design/acoustics in such a way that would better support your DS's learning?

I don't know anything about appeals at all but I can't help thinking that a panel may need an awful lot of persuading that a child who didn't pass the entrance test should be admitted... were the problems on the day of the test were reported at the time (and backed up in writing later)? As a KS2 teacher I know that lots of parents at 'my' school were disappointed that their children, some of whom did pass the 11+ but who live further away than there were places available, didn't get grammar school places and they are appealing. I should think you need to base a lot on ensuring that the the panel are clear that the confusion your DS experienced on the day of the test disproportionately disadvantaged him because of his AS which is why you are appealing in the first instance, assuming that had he passed the 11+, you live close enough for him to have been offered a place?

Agree with scaryteacher. The idea that children must sit in pairs is ridiculous. And to be less measured than I was last time, the idea that a teacher cannot cope with more than 28 pupils is also ridiculous. Clearly it will make more work for them but I don't think many panels would accept that as a reason for refusing to admit.

In terms of the comment by SE13Mummy, your case is that your son was unfairly disadvantaged by the mistake on the day of the test. You will argue that the school should have compensated for that when marking his test but they failed to do so. Information you have shared with me offlist (and which I hope you don't mind me sharing here) clearly indicates that your son's score was damaged by what happened in that he got the worst score in the first subject tested despite the fact that this is his strongest subject.

Nothing is ever certain but, provided you have good evidence of what happened and the likely damage to your son's score, I think there is a reasonable chance that an appeal panel will conclude that your son would have passed the test if it had not been for the mistake. Appeal panels are supposed to admit children if they conclude that a mistake has been made and, had the admission arrangements been administered correctly, the child would have been admitted. The only exception to this is when the mistake affects a lot of children and the school couldn't cope with all of them. It is therefore my view that a panel should be prepared to award a place to a child who has failed the entrance test due to a mistake in the administration of that test.

Not that it's relevant because it'll probably be a different school in a different LA but Bexley Grammar School have 32 in each tutor group, and during KS3 pupils are taught in tutor groups. As far as I am aware, none of the teachers there have had nervous breakdowns due to having 32 pupils in a class.

Also, in their most recent Ofsted they were rated as being outstanding in all areas which will include pastoral elements. Thus, there exists already at least one English grammar school where classes have more than 28 pupils but this does not have a negative impact upon the pastoral care the pupils experience.

It probably counts for nothing but you never know...!

Thankyou all very very much for your comments. Many interesting comments that are both informative, and a big comfort to my stress over this! You have all given me lots to think about, I think I'll print this out to help me prepare for the presentation and help calm my nerves before the day.

I'm going to keep on at the school to give me the information I want, I have only asked in email so far, would it be better for me to write formally or should it make no difference? Should I print out copies of the emails I have sent?

Also, do any of you have any tips to help me prepare the presentation? I've sent out the bulk of my written evidence so far, but if I do recieve any info from the school I will have to send it separately. I haven't done any sort of presentation since I was at school myself, so I'm quite nervous about it. I'm planning on going through the letter I have already written and stating all the points I have already made, and giving a fuller explanation of what happened to my son on the morning of the test than I was able to clearly explain in my letter.

Anything else I should know?

Email should be enough for any request for information. It may be worth taking printouts of the emails to the appeal if the school fail to come up with the requested information.

How you prepare the presentation is really down to what works for you. I like to have a list of questions I intend to ask the LA - as far as possible I stick to questions where I know the answer. I then write a list of bullet points to remind myself of the main points to cover in my presentation and a shorter list of bullet points to cover the things I want to say when summing up. I then run through both the main presentation and the summing up repeatedly, to the point where I don't really need my notes - they are really just there to help me out if I manage to get myself lost. However, I know other people who like to write out their presentation in full.

Whatever approach you take, be prepared to be flexible and make sure you listen to what others say. Information may emerge in the course of the hearing that makes you change tack. And members of the panel may ask questions you were going to ask. Indeed, some questions may become unnecessary depending on what the LA say during their presentation.

As well as explaining what happened on the morning of the test, make sure you explain the effect it would have had on your son. It would help if you can quantify the effect, i.e. estimate how may additional marks your son would have got if it hadn't been for the problems. An estimate from your son's school would obviously carry more weight than one you produce yourself, especially if they can justify their reasoning.

prh47bridge Thankyou.

I have a letter from the SENCO at my son's school confirming her opinion that he would be at a significant disadvantage if he was not given time to settle in to the room, and that she had discussed this with the SEN staff at the grammar school before the test. I have pestered them already for letter and I don't think they will appreciate me trying to make them estimate what his score could have been. I think it would be hard for them to know given that they would not have seen the test paper, but I do have a letter from the head saying that she would have expected him to pass. I also have a letter from the class teacher with his predicted SAT results which are good.

I can only try my best with the presentation. Flexibility is fine by me, I have planned to do bullet point type notes so that I can refer back to them if I need to.

I want to be able to ask questions to the school representative, but I'm worried that they would answer to my disadvantage. Perhaps that's partly why they are reluctant to answer my emails!

What sort of information could come up during the hearing? I though I was supposed to try and minimise that as much as possible, so I hope I don't ebd up too thrown! I think my biggest worry is that I will gabble too much out of nerves and come across as a gibbering mess!

Does the letter from the SENCO confirm that the first subject tested is your son's strongest? If not it may be worth getting something from his teacher, who may be willing to say something like, "In my opinion X is his strongest subject and I would expect his score in this subject to be roughly 5% higher than his score in subject Y". That would allow you to give the panel an estimate of what your son's score should have been with something to back it up and show it isn't just you plucking numbers out of the air. Even if they aren't willing to go that far, it would be useful if your son's school will confirm that the first subject tested is his strongest subject. That would help to confirm that your son's result was affected by the problems.

"I want to be able to ask questions to the school representative, but I'm worried that they would answer to my disadvantage" - That is why I'm a believer in asking questions where you know the answer. It isn't always possible to stick to this approach completely, of course, but it is a good way to avoid nasty surprises.

"What sort of information could come up during the hearing" - You are right that neither you nor the school should be advancing significant additional evidence at the hearing. However, sometimes you will find that a question from a member of the panel provides unexpected information which helps you, for example. Or it may be that the school's representative says something which is worth exploring further.

Appeal panels are used to nervous parents and will do everything they can to help you relax. I remember how nervous I was in my first appeal, so I know it isn't easy. However, if you present yourself to the panel as clearly as you have here you won't have any problems in getting your case across.

Thankyou, prh47bridge, your generosity with your time and your knowledge on here is amazing. It really has helped me, and I know you have helped others here too, so huge big THANKYOU!

It says on the letters from the head and the class teacher that maths is his strongest subject (the first subject tested), he is on G&T for maths, and his end of year results last year show a much stronger ability in that subject too. Also his predicted SAT score is 5a for maths but 5b for English, so I will try and draw attention to those things.

Once again, thankyou.