% of kids at private school in sixth form

[foodfairy]

Was chatting to a friend the other day and the usual statistic about 93% of kids going to state school came up and how Oxbridge takes a far higher number of private kids.

But then I wondered surely that 7% number is spread over all school ages. But I would imagine more kids go private the older they get? And there are less children in school at 18 than 8, more of whom will be privately educated as they are less likely to drop out?

So those oxbridge figures which I think are around 50% coming from private schools maybe not quite so skewed?

Just curious. Any answers?

Yes, you are right the percentage does change. Looking at all ages only 7% of British children are privately educated, but if you look only at children over 16 (ie those taking A levels, IB or other qualifications for university entrance) then the percentage in private education goes up to around 16 or 17%.

Surely as the next year group of 16 year olds move up to Sixth Form and have to stay in full-time education until they are 18, then the percentage will drop?
There will be a higher number of state school pupils in sixth form iyswim.
Will this have a big effect? Just wondering.

The state school percentage has increased again this year and the Oxford is putting even more money into its outreach programme; there seems to be no hint of complacency that the status quo, with its huge disparity, is ok.

One New College tutor was quoted in the Guardian very recently saying that the state school figures are diguised however, since many state school applicants come from grammars which are not based on pure academic merit but on social exclusion. In other words the current state school figures look better than they 'really' are.

The Oxford statistics show that, overall, applicants from grammars have exactly the same percentage chance of getting in as applicants from the independent sector (obviously some grammars are very weak as are some independents just as some in both sector are great).

Yelowstone: "One New College tutor was quoted in the Guardian very recently saying that the state school figures are diguised however, since many state school applicants come from grammars which are not based on pure academic merit but on social exclusion. In other words the current state school figures look better than they 'really' are."

Why do you say Grammars are based on social exclusion? You may well be right, but I'm interested.

we have a selective grammar here for ages 11-16, but the attached 6th form is open to all with 5 reasonable GCSEs (it doesn't demand more than 5 Bs I think, although to do eg sciences would probably require A-A*), so really not selective at all; a lot of local kids who went private at 11 come back into the grammar 6th form.

Not sure how that gets counted in Oxbridge terms, as they were private at GCSE, but are state at A level

that doesn't apply to ours, squidgy (in Lancs) - there are some very expensive parts of the catchment area, & very affluent families, but also plenty of cheap bits too.

I was at ds's school today and overheard two dads talking about our local grammar (ds is at pre-prep). If they hadn't named the school I would have though they were talking about a private secondary. Apparently dcs at the grammar are tested weekly and get termly reports called 'orders' where they are marked against expected levels. Very pressured environment and huge competition to even get in the sixth form ( no automatic right ). Very different from grammar school in my day ( in the same area) where provided you got As in your choices for A level you'd get in.

oh, well, then these are applying from a state school, & it is really non-selective at 6th form so they probably get counted just as state.

(The selective lower school admits 120 per year; the non-selective 6th form admits about 350)

MollieO, ours is nothing like that

I've heard stories about this school before but thought it was over played. It was interesting listening to two men discussing it as there was less hyperbole, just an explanation of how things are. Completely put me off the school tbh. My old school only celebrated academic achievements and I don't want my Ds going to a school like that. The non-selective private school attached to his pre-prep is looking more attractive.

erebus I was quoting the tutor loosely from memory rather than saying it myself, I didn't make that clear. He's one of the tutors in favour of more radical reform to the admissions process at Oxford. What he said exactly was: 'The state school percentage [up to 58.5% for 2011], of which some of us seem bafflingly proud, is deceptive. We need to stop hoodwinking ourselves and others and admit that many of those who make up the intake from state schools are actually from selective schools, which operate not through some kind of pure academic merit but through social and cultural exclusion and elitism'.

I wouldn't like to say how sophisticated his knowledge is, I imagine very. I live in an area with only one grammar which is outstanding. I do know that some students are deterred from applying because they or their parents perceive it to be 'posh'. I also know that the numbers of independent school pupils admitted to Year 7 isn't disproportionate at all. That leaves out the issue of whether there is a 'type' of parent that tends to put its child forward for the 11+ as well as the tutoring issue. The threads on MN suggest over and over again that tutoring for the 11+ is endemic - but I assume that MN operates in quite a confined social bubble, though again, I don't know.

The Oxford website is bursting with statistics and now includes those for entry in 2010.

The other thing to look at are the number and range of courses offered by Oxbridge. Something like 30 subject options but a lot of other unis offer a wider range with a hugh number of combinations. If your child wants to study Norse and Old English okay but if they want to study Journalism, Oceanography or whatever then they may have to go elsewhere.

and naturally if you have not studied A Level Latin and pref A Level Greek then you may not be able to study Classics. Okay if dc goes to an indie or grammar that offer those A level options but most state Sixth Forms can not

They offer Classics from scratch. But the stats do distinguish between the most applied to courses for state schoolers and the least applied to (of which Classics is one).

Thanks for all these responses. Think it goes to show that statistics aren't always that straightforward. Hadn't even thought about the % of grammar school kids within the state school statistic.

I guess the question should be what percentage get into Oxbridge from comprehensives??? Not many I suspect.

This was discussed on the Guardian website and someone who seemed to know what they were talking about stated that the chances of a state school pupil who applies to Oxbridge getting offered a place were exactly the same as an independant school pupil. The difference is entirely down to state school pupils being less likely to apply. It would be interesting to know if this is definitely true. Oxbridge are working hard to encourage state school pupils though I don't think the gap will ever close completely.

The next statistic that would be interesting would be the difference between the number of state and independant pupils who get straight A* at A level. Are there many Oxbridge students who would not have got those A levels if they had gone to a state school, and therefore would have been shut out of even applying?

alison the Oxford University website has all the figures to answer your first point. The chances are clearly not exactly the same.

No university will make a standard offer of straight A's at A level. Do you know how difficult it is to achieve an A at A2? They'd have very sparsely populated colleges if they did that. Straight A*'s are achieved only by the tiny minority at the top schools in both the independent and (selective) state sectors.

State school pupils do apply less, which is a well recognised problem and what the outreach programmes are designed to address.