Bursaries - why not get rid of them and offer wider participation to more children?

[gramercy]

I have seen quite a few threads recently where people are asking how to get bursaries.

Well, many many of us would like a nice bursary, thanks, but because we earn a modest salary are not able to qualify.

Meanwhile, some people get bursaries in spite of the fact that their official income is a very small part of the real picture. Eg I know someone whose dh is a primary school teacher. She has 6 children, is SAHM. First two dcs are attending private school with full fees paid. Now, this dh used to work in the City. They live in a 6-bedroomed house, have holiday homes in France and Cornwall - so I rather doubt their sole income is the dh's salary.

Now, wouldn't it be much better if private/public schools were urged (forced!) to offer, in order to retain their charitable obligations, things that would benefit a much larger group of children. Music, sport and, say, masterclasses in university entrance come to mind.

I see that many county music services are making cut-backs and so state-school pupils will lose out in this area - how much better for a private school to provide musical involvement to a large number of children rather than pay the fees of one child.

I think music art sports and academic scholarships are usually offered on an entirely different basis from bursaries?

I don't have any personal involvement with private schools but I was under the impression that they already did extend their services to the community as part of their charitable status.

Do you mean you think they should do more of this and completely remove bursaries?

Yes. Instead of a bit of "you can use our cricket pitch once a fortnight" sort of stuff, which is very small beer, they could provide music tuition, involvement in the orchestra, coaching and participation in the chess club... that sort of thing.

We have just been through the bursary procedure. The forms were incredibly detailed. Down to the make model and valuation of any car you may have, and the value of contents insurance on your house. Copies of bank statements, details of direct debits, the whole lot. We certainly couldn't have got away with a scenario like the one you describe G...

I suppose burseries are to help families who have temporalily fallen on hard times.

For example I know a child whose had very rich parents, but both parents died when the child was 12 years old. The child was given a full boarding bursery by his private school. (Inspite of being a bit of a handful and not particularly bright)

It meant the boy did not have to go into care and could see the granparents at weekends. It also meant that the boy did not have to change school at a very difficult time.

I think the concerns of the county music service is a bit irrelevent in comparison to loosing your parents at 12

I do see where you are coming from. There was a thread a while back where a poster was hoping for a bursary from a private school becuase she and her DH were still students. Often bursaries are offered in cases of misfortune eg. death of a parent. Is that case misfortune or simply bad planning?

I think death of parent whilst a child is at the school is different and (hopefully) not a hugely common occurrence.

But there does seem to be quite a bit of jiggery pokery going on with people concealing personal funds or, as BranchingOut remembered, the person who hoped for a bursary for their child because they had opted out of the world of work and chosen to become students.

Im all for bursaries(wouldnt it be great if our top schools were needs blind?) and people that fiddle the system (if they exist) should be shot,its theft from someone more deserving,simple as that,but this idea of letting children in for music,swimming etc,I pay a very large amount of money every year and I want the teachers I pay for to be teaching my children and giving them 100% during term time,If they want to do that in holidays-fine but not in time that Ive paid for.

I think in a lot of cases bursaries are funded from endowments (not the fees of current parents) - in which case there may be conditions attached such as 'to provide for the education of x scholars'

propatria - I think the idea is (approximately) that these activities are paid for from the money saved by the school as a result of its charitable status. If a school doesn't provide external benefit it shouldn't be classed as a charity.

Indeed.

The move to means-tested bursaries simply makes the system even more polarised. To go to a private school, you either need to be very rich or very poor. Somewhere in the middle and you are buggered, no matter how bright.

My dearest friend from school had a 100% academic scholarship to our school. I've no idea if her parents would have been able to send her to private school without it as they were of modest means. They probably wouldn't have qualified under means testing but it may still have been a nigh-on impossible struggle to pay. Given that she is now a leading academic of utterly awe-inspiring achievement, she was clearly exactly the sort of child that academic scholarships were designed for. Schools used to fight for those super-bright children as they helped lift the standards and competition for all the others.

Unfortunately such scholarships are a rarity nowadays as private schools instead direct the funding into means-tested bursaries. They typically only have nominal scholarships that are worth very little.

Dame Suzi Quango has indeed tried to re-interpret charitable status in that way,I think shell be looking for another job in the near future,Personally i dont think charity should be -youve got something,youve paid for it,but I want it for nothing.

Yes, I know some very wealthy parents who have managed to get 75% bursaries for both their children, and to top it all now brag about how they beat the system.

Well in that case,I hope youve told the school

If it's anything like the means-testing for the old university grants it doesn't surprise me. The only people I knew who qualified for full grants came from wealthy families. But Daddy would have his own business and was drawing a minimal salary...

Well if there is a lot of fiddling, maybe they do need to go to a system like the US. Where I know financial assistance is dealt with by outside organisations who do means test the parents. Of course it would also mean that rather than bursaries just going to those students who are so bright (or otherwise desirable) that the school desperately wants them, the bursaries would go to anyone the school was willing to take whose parents were poor enough.

BTW I really don't think the situation in state schools is (always) as dire as you make out. And if I was paying 30,000 a year for an education for my child I might not want the teachers to be taking too much time out to teach the flute at the local state school (especially as I would be paying extra for little Peter's flute lessons).

In recent weeks I've heard stories of people putting the second home in the company name, etc, etc, to qualify for a bursary - sadly think this is probably true in some instances. Yes, you do have to fill in incredibly detailed forms for bursaries (like tax return to power of 10) but let's face it, if you've got all that money you've probably got a creative accountant, too. :(

I am involved in allocating a bursary at a well known school and can tell you none of the "tricks" listed get past us,cant speak for others but its not just a question of filling in forms,home visits and other information is gathered from outside sources.

Both bursaries and the broader music/sport participation you suggest actually come straight out of the pockets of the parents paying the fees, who are already paying taxes for the state education system.

The cost of these politically driven initiatives simply drives up the level of fees and makes independent schools even less accessible.

In some cases (rare, I think) the intiatives are good for making privately educated children mix with a broader range of children.

State schools should provide curricular music and sport and the tax payer should fund instrumental lessons etc for those whose parents really cannot afford it. I am not sure how it is fair to treat fee-paying parents as a separate source of public fnds

Propatria, or anyone who knows, could I ask you what the situation is for a lone parent (bottom level income and matching life) regarding the absent parent and their income when they; don't have PR, are not paying any maintenance, have no intention of ever doing so, are deeply in debt, but mum's done her best to keep a civilised relationship between him and the child regardless?

Does ?outside sources? include gossip?

Each case is judged on its own merits,the situation you describe dragon is one we encountered recently,the absent parent was disregarded as it was clear they were not going to be part of the solution,sins of the father etc..
Gossip,companies house,newspapers,members of organisations, etc,etc,all can back up (or not) the story on the application form.
Most bursaries actually dont come out of parents pockets they come from endowments.

I know of a case (not me!) a few years ago where a person was given a bursary, but it was not 100%. They managed to get charitable funding elsewhere for the balance, and were then told by the school that this would then form part of their income and would reduce their eligibility. However, I also know of another family where their income was low on paper because the dad worked for a local authority as a surveyor, but did cash in hand jobs on loft extensions etc which paid for their holidays in Australia... I know this because he was quite open and told us when he asked us to write a cheque to his wife's credit card so it would not be traceable via his bank account. DH refused.

Thank you, Propatria. :)
We?re visibly struggling and my acceptance of an unfixable situation and biting my tongue and putting my child needs before my feelings have caused a lot of local gossip, plus he?s easier to like than I am and we both used to do work benefiting the yummy mummies who think he?s lovely, and for my children?s sake I don?t normally go round telling people how badly stitched up he?s left us, but one of my children was invited by a school way beyond anything we could ever dream of, to have a go at their scholarship exam, and interviews, and passed.
We?re holding our breath dazed still waiting for the other shoe to drop (on our heads!)

Credit card statements (from both parents)always asked for,so that wouldnt have got past us,it would seem some schools are less thorough,in the case youve outlined ,passports also checked, if you want to make sure the bursary goes to the deserving you can and should,oh and if we do find people telling porkies,we make sure other possible schools are notified...

propatria, what about the scenario if parents have more than one credit card but only submit statements from one, or more than one bank account, how scrupulous are the investigations? Surely the data protection act prevents a lot of investigation. I say this as a parent in receipt of a bursary and not looking to cheat the system. We have been very fortunate (and honest!) but I can see ways of potentially cheating the system depending on how it is looked at.

I also wonder how holidays etc can be checked as we have never been asked about this (1 week in a caravan in the uk if you are interested). Also never been asked about make & model of car (9 year old nissan!) I guess schools are different in what they can realistically look into.