Is 24 in a prep school class too many?

[PercyVerance]

Worry is starting to set in about DS getting into our local primary as it recently got an outstanding Ofsted and rumour has it that twice as many children have applied as there are places.

With this in mind I've started to look at the possibility of nearby prep school. After a quick chat with the admissions lady, she told me that they are expecting an intake of around 24 this year and that they would be in 1 class with 1 teacher and 2 teaching assistants. Is this a bigger class than you would expect for an independent school?

If we do end up going down this route it would mean a massive financial commitment for us so I'd want to be absolutely sure that it was worth it. I was just a bit suprised as I had though around 15 was average?

We have 17 children with 1 teacher and 1 TA postion (job share) so that is roughly 1 adult to 9 children. If both the TAs are full time you would have a ratio of 1 to 8 which is slightly better. I would discuss with them how this works etc.

Seems a lot, tbh - one of the things I was looking for when we looked was small class sizes, around the 15 mark, as you say. We didn't go private in the end - we did get into the good local school, fingers crossed for you - but the one we put an original deposit on had around 12 -14 per class I think.

Does the school have a lot of other features to recommend it? (e.g playing fields, music, sport facilities etc)

There are 24 children in my DD's class (French CP / English Y2) and it's just fine, IMO. The DC are all very well behaved but are mostly multilingual and all seem to make good, regular progress.

24 does seem high, but they do have 3 members of staff.

For comparison, 5 fee-paying schools near us have 20 max in pre-prep and 16 in prep, and 1 has 12 per class.

Will they have 2 TAs in Y1,2,3 etc, or is it just for Reception? That could make a difference.

I would say 24 is pushing the envelope for a class size but 1 teacher and 2 TA is a high staff ratio.

IME 1 teacher and 1 TA with 20 pupils is normal for a Prep school in Reception.

Depends on the temperament of your child, whether confident in large group or a bit shy/sensitive and would benefit froma smaller group at least initially.

Benefit is that there is a wider friendship group to draw from.

Make enquiries about whether the TAs are full -time, i.e. pretty much in the classroom all the time or off doing other organisational stuff.

Too large for me.

I'd rather they take thirty and split the class in two. Nice small class sizes for desk work, nice critical mass for sports, drama etc

Unusual arrangement, but, as the comments say, it is a good staff ratio. You'd want to know that the TA were properly trained, not just nursery-style helpers, and that the staffing levels were retained up the school.
At my DCs there are 20 in reception, with 1 teacher and 1 TA, and this arrangement is retained to the end of class 3, after which there are generally about 15 children to 1 teacher. You wouldn't want to see the TAs dropped too soon.

Where are you? In west london fairly common in pre-prep but class sizes do reduce - some move into the state sector when places become available, plus there is alot of movement.

DS is in year 3 and has 23 in his class. They might lose one or two boys by the end of the school, but not many more.

As we have moved him out of the state sector where his class was never less than 30, and often illegally more than that, I am pretty happy with the class size.

It also depends on the school of course. If they want all the children writing nicely and reading Biff and Chip by the end of reception, they will need more staff than if some kids can get round to this in year 1. You might see this as helping children achieve their full potential, or you might see it as joyless hot housing. I'm not trying to make a value judgement about that - more that different children will flourish at different schools, and staff/pupil ratios are both cause and effect of this.

Thanks for the views, there are some very good questions here that I need to raise when we go to visit. I hadn't even given any thought to what happens past reception class with regard to staff ratios.

It is an odd situation because the current reception year is made up of 2 classes of approx 14 each with a teacher & TA but this year they have decided to have one larger class (possibly because there aren't as many applicants). They were clear however that there would only be 1 teacher with 2 TA rather than 2 teachers.

They did also make the point that there is a lot of movement between now and Sept with regard to numbers and they usually have a fair few drop out that get into good state schools (as we will do hopefully!)

DS isn't really shy with other children but is a bit around adults and is the sort of child that does get lost in a group hence my worry. Having said that, if he is lucky enough to get our state school that will be in a class of 30+ so that isn't great either!

Argghhhh decisions, decisions!

Our pre prep classes all have a full time TA, and tend to max out at 16. Currently the 2 reception classes are 13 and 15, Y1 slightly bigger with 2 16s and Y2 has a 12, a 13 and another 12.

Parents at our school tend to get jittery post 16 but there is an official cap of 20 - although I would think that parental pressure would probably mean that this wouldnt happen.

I wonder how, with 24 in a class, they would be able to complete accurate learning journals with all the necessary observations and evidence of child led learning (if this is what the school subscribes to) This is a huge amount of admin for the staff involved and the TAs would need to have been properly trained.

For me 24 would be 8 too many, particularly bearing in mind that some state schools have 24 with equivalent support. If the pre prep get more pupils applying are they going to add these into the class? Reception is quite full on and the children have specific needs; learning to settle, dress and undress for playtime and pe etc, starting to conform and be a part of a "class unit" and not just an individual - and this is just some of the non academic stuff. Add to that the beginnings of the 3 r's and this makes for quite a full on year. I appreciate that in state school teachers do this in a class of 30 ( been there, done that ) but you are paying a lot of money and the parental expectation is likely to be greater given this fact.

Well I think the DS always had classes of about 24 at prep in SW London which feeds into one of the most successful schools in the country. The quality of the teaching and the breadth of the curriculum was more important to us than small class sizes. Don't really see the point of children being "coached" in small classes of 12 or so to get into the very competitive London schools which must then appear completely overwhelming because Westminster, St Pauls, Kings certainly don't have particularly small class sizes later on.

I think that 24 is too much for reception and indeed the preprep years where children have such a range of abilities. Far more manageable in a selective prep school where they have managed to stream the pupils a bit more by ability.

That said, reception is but one year, so you need to consider how the school will deal with this apparent low admission year in the future. Is it simply a blip, or will they try to recruit more pupils with a view to then splitting the classes. If they currently have 2 reception teachers what are they going to do with the one they don't need?

Well after much more debate DH went online and looked at the schools financial accounts, they aren't good. It seems the school has be running at a significant loss for the past 5 years which doesn't appear to be the norm for other preps in the county(home counties). So another warning bell for us I think. I have a feeling the combined class maybe a result of a cost cutting exercise which is not a great sign.

What I would check is if this is a common and long-term class size for the school. The reason I say is that it could be that they've merged two smaller classes because numbers are falling off and/or they're in financial trouble.

Of course it might be nothing like that but I would suggest you look into their financials - are they loss making, do they have a defecit, have numbers fallen in recent years etc...

too much for me too.

my DD is in a class of 15 with 1 teacher and 1 assistant

This seems a lot for a fee-paying school. My children are in a busy state junior and usually have 27 in the class with a TA on hand at all times, plus 1-to-1 for any SEN children.

24 for key stage 2 is fine but I would think pretty big for reception and year 1. I would not be so concerned about the NQT as if she's been around along time and is good will have loads of experience. Do you know any parents who are already in the school? if so do they know the lady concerned and do they think she is good. However if you love the whole school then you may have to live with it ..it's only part of the whole school. What are they planning to do for year 1 onwards?

ime 24 at Pre-prep age is unusual. dd had 16 max then 20 from Year 3 (21 for a while in Year 4 - they try to keep it at 20 or less but occasionally accommodate siblings which can take it over). Finances would also concern me - at least one independent school round here is closing this summer and hear another small one is already losing pupils.

Dont know of any decent prep school with that number,15/16 max in a prep that is aiming for good schools for its leavers.

My son's class (Yr 2) has 10 - 3 boys and 7 girls. For him it is a perfect number. There is one other class in the same year and they do work together for some things.

My daughter goes into reception in September. At the moment there are 3 classes in her year and there are 18 in her class (though as it is pre-school they aren't all full time). I know that will drop a lot when she moves into reception as a lot of children will leave to join the state sector.

16 would be my max, 18 at a push, but 24 when I am paying, no.

At our school they split into 2 when they get to 18 children in a class. 24 seems quite high.