Why aren't there schools for G and T children?

[DiracGirl]

After being told that our my nephew's abilities out stripped those of his class mates my sister began to panic.
There was no way she could afford the fees of an independent school and we don't live in the kind of place that offers a choice in state school.
Many, and there are many, of the independent schools in the area offer little in the way of help and none of them provide grants to 5 year olds.
This angers me.
Why isn't there...something!
These children are our future scientists, doctors, inventors and, well, anything they want really.
It's about time the government realised, these children have special needs too. They deserve a right to a standard of education comparable with their intelligence.
If you put a child with the classic idea of special needs in a class of "ordinary" children and ignored them there would be outrage. So why is it acceptable to waste the talents of the gifted?
Should a child with intelligence greater than that of his or her peers be left to rot in a dull stupor whilst the rest catch up??
I've spent hours trawling the Internet. ISC, Mensa, direct gov, the lot. All I can find is a poor child gets a nod of appreciation for making the government stats look good at exam time and not much else.
I know there are those of you who scoff and say "a bright child will do well anywhere!" but is that the best we can offer...do well???
How about getting the best from them? Or helping them grow to THEIR full potential? Challanging them?
Is it so much to ask?
Enrichment classes? A few hours to feel segregated? To be labelled a swat, geek or freak?
I say give them an a place they can be given the education they need, with like minded children and well trained staff that can cope.
There are a few gifted children in my family and I'm sure I'll be having the same rant in a 2 years when DS is in the same position, although I have planned for this contingency and have looked into independent schooling (13 years on value baked beans) but I only have one child, my sister has three. I don't need to show you the maths to explain a lottery win is in order.

Bonsoir: that's an interesting point. When my DD was conversing fluently, she was not yet walking; she was the freaky baby who lay there looking babylike and then would talk to you like an older child. Eventually it evened out.

And now, she's not yet at puberty (she's not yet 13 so no reason she should be) but I've noticed that many of her friends very clearly are. I think the speed of physical development and of mental development are often not in synch. I'm sure it could be a thesis topic somewhere!

jajas my friend's DS does have friends.

When he was in reception many children accommodated his advanced intellect and my friend is a superb socialiser so pursued it with gusto.

Then he moved ahead a year and some of the children were much more mature physically. Also as time went on they became less tolerant of him.
He was very unahppy.

At his new school he does have some friends with the other uber bright boys. Also, his own maturity means he is well able to pursue conversations on their level when necessary.

That said, he is happiest when discussing science and maths with the bods at Oxbridge/MIT etc
The internet has helped him find people like himself, though most of them are not is age of course.

Haven't read other posts but (to be both controversial and honest) gifted and talented is a totally made up concept.

I've solicited the opinion of many teachers (none from my DC's school by the way) who live in a number of different parts of the country and they all agree that G+T is essentially a marker to highlight those children who are doing well for the area they live in.
What they also say is that if you live in an area where house prices are ridiculously high as a consequence of there being good state schools, then these G+T children would only be doing as well as the children in these schools (and may well be doing worse than a lot of children in these schools). Areas with good schools/high house prices don't even have G+T.

Sorry to be the bearer of bad news but 'tis the truth!

Thanks for the clarification, Pixie :) My apologies.

LOL I was also one of those freaky DCs who could talk properly before she could walk!

Whereas my DD could walk beautifully ages before becoming sensible talking!

Has anyone seen the UKCAT questions that you need to score highly in to get into medicine? They are horrendous and I reckon you would need to be 'gifted' to get a reasonable score in them.

What I would like is for all teachers to try and motivate EVERY child to acheive the best they can, and have high expectations.
Our primary thinks its ok that a child can be reading the same level reading books for 11mths, because the child is still average for their age. They don't seem to get any attention until they slip below a certain level.
It is up to parents to keep their kids motivated and moving along in these circumstances.

"Areas with good schools/high house prices don't even have G+T."

Actually, they do.

My dd had an Ed Psych assessment at 5,a couple of months ago,it did help in terms of the school then putting things in place to help her (she is clever,but not genius!)but sadly she was so unhappy at school we've had to pull her out and home-ed her for now.My worries are of course that she will now fit in even less well with her peer group,but it was so bad that we couldn't continue as we were.In terms of her work she was being stimulated enough by the teacher and the school head was great,but in other ways at the moment she is out of kilter with her class and that was making her frustrated and miserable.I'm hoping she will go back into mainstream school at some point,possibly after she is seven.Its a fine line with all children and they all have different needs at different stages,I suppose what that means it that schools tend to be better at dealing with the average,as that will make up most of the class,either end of the spectrum,or both ends at once,can be trickier.Really though,my small rural primary did their absolute best,whereas a friend's quirky and very clever indeed teenager was failed badly by her horrendously expensive private school,so there is no clear answer,only trying to find a good fit for any particular child.

They definitely don't!

Maybe your area isn't doing as well as it could be!

Mine go to an outstanding school in an area where most houses cost more than three times the national average. They have G and T

Or maybe it depends on other things too.

However, I know for a fact that Sheffield which has G+T throughout most of the city doesn't have G+T in the area where good schools/high house prices coincide.

And the reason for not having it is as I've stated.

Only part read the thread but the idea of "special" schools for G and T pupils would never work, for one just because someone is classed as being Gifted and Talented in one subject doesn't mean they will be in every subject.

When I as at school I was classed and G and T (or whatever the version of was back then!) in Maths but everything else I was just average/slightly above average and certainly wouldn't have benefited at all from being pushed into a school for G and T just because I was so good at maths.

And at 5 sorry but what happens to letting children be children? Encourage them to enjoy learning and want to do it but don't push them and label them.

You are right about how they identify G and T. All it means is the top few in each class which of course varies from school to school. They don't decide not to do it just because a school is in a wealthy area that would just be odd At our shcool most children are a long way beyond the average but they still have G and T.

' They don't decide not to do it just because a school is in a wealthy area that would just be odd '

Absolutely!

And I think you were right to pick me up on it as I think I've made a connection where perhaps there isn't one.

However the point I was making which is that in areas where most of the children are performing at the national average/above the national average (I'm not sure where it actually lies, but at a high standard) they don't bother with G+T as the majority of the class would qualify.

I still stand by my Sheffield thing as it's utterly true. However, maybe it's got nothing to do with house prices and everything to do with the schools themselves.

One of my brothers was always seen as average at school. Certainly not G and T. Large family and by most peoples idea of 'success' he is mega achiever since school. His more conventionally academic siblings sigh at his success! All this G and T stuff may well eventually mean little in 'the real world'. As for labelling at 5 - I think way, way too soon to judge...

Exactly!

Now if it were possible to spot personal drive and teach personal drive...

...that would be the thing!

But the majority of the class will never qualify because they only take the top 5 %. Even if the top five % in one school is working at level four but the top 5 % in another school is working at level 7. They still both qualify.

It is all absolutley meaningless as you point out.

Exactly!

So if they take the top 5%, you're saying that the top 5% of what could be a totally failing school (with all kids below national avergae for the purposes of this example) hit the gifted and talented list .

However, I am saying that most of the children at all of the locl schools are doing really well and so most of all of the children in the area would qualify as G+T, so many in fact, that they don't have G+T.

(Thus leading to my incorrect assumption that people move to areas with good schools and pay through the nose for it ergo areas with no G+T).