Trying to decide where to live - grammar or comprehensive system?

[chillipickle]

Towards the end of this year we need to apply for a school place for ds1, for which we need to be living in the appropriate catchment area.

We currently live in Bucks, which has the 11+ and grammar system. We have identified a couple of very good local primary schools which feed into an excellent grammar and also (importantly) to a good secondary for the kids that don't pass the 11+. So if we stay in this area, that's where we would aim for.

However, we are currently commuting long distances to work, and are considering a move to Oxfordshire and both working locally, so that we could cut our commuting time/costs and enjoy a better quality of life.

So the question is: would a move be a good idea, or not? We can see plenty of pros and cons.

In Bucks around 25-30% of children go to grammar schools. Whether or not our dcs would pass the 11+ is completely unknown to us, as they are only 10 months and 3 years old.

We'd really appreciate any advice from people who have been through all this. Just how stressful is it when they go through the 11+? Should we stay in this area and give our dcs the chance of a grammar education, or should we steer well clear of the whole thing?

It's probably safe to say that paying school fees is not an option for us in the foreseeable future.

I'd move.
You don't know if the DCs will get in so you could well find yourself having stayed put for no real reason.
Quality of life is very very important - and if your/your DH's work/life balance is better, that will have a positive impact on the whole family, your DCs included.
I think a good school is a good school - as long as you can find one on Oxfordshire your DCs will be fine.

Move! Move! Move!

(Wish I had.)

We moved to Bucks when our DCs were about the age yours are. One wasn'teven born yet. We had no idea if they were bright or not. But the non-grammar schools in the area we were looking at had better GCSE results than the comprehensive where we were living. So the choice was a non-starter for us.

In the end all our 3 DCs got to grammar schools, so I may be biased, but it was the best decision we've ever made.

The actual 11+ is quite stressful - the kids manufacture their own stress, even if the parents are laid back about it. Almost everyone has extra tuition, either from a parent, using old papers (what we did) or from a tutor. But they get through it,one way or another.

If the 11+ is failed, there is always the appeals process. If that doesn't get the result you want, there is the 12+. Some kids I know have transferred to grammar schools in the 6th form, on the basis of good GCSEs. So the 11+ is not a one off pass or fail thing.

I wouldm definitely definitely move - it's a very divisive system at all levels

Interesting replies, thanks all. If you don't mind me asking, stoatsrevenge, what happened to make you wish you had moved?

Butterbur, yes we are in a similar situation in that the results at the non-grammar school are in line with the national average, which is very good considering that the selection process has sent a lot of the more academic children elsewhere.

I didn't tutor, because I really don't believe in it. Ds got into grammar on appeal - a relief as our catchment secondary gets less than 20% A-C at GCSE, and, at the time had only 16 pupils in the sixth form.

I was disappointed by the engagement / the lack of enthusiasm and the extremely narrow curriculum, particularly in the school's apparent 'specialism'. The curriculum was nearly as narrow as that offered by my grammar school in 1975!!

When ds was 18 years of age, I also thought the perpetual reminders about targets and not getting to school on time (ds had no lessons at 9am and never missed a lesson, even when he got in late) was incredibly patronising.

After 7 years of this education, ds became an arts student in a grammar school, which was a bit like being a rat in a science lab.
Wish he'd gone to 6th form college - the only problem is they didn't do his favourite subject at A level.

I guess all this suits an academic and complaint child. But we got stung....

Before we chose schools, we went to see a comprehensive in a neighbouring county....we were wowed! (Only 1000 people appealed for that one!)

Yes, personally I believe that if your child's strengths and weaknesses in relation to the world of schooling is as yet unknown, the good comprehensive is the way to go. Whilst I am heartened to hear that the 'alternative' schools in your area (and they're secondary moderns, however it's dressed up!) are doing well, my 'bias' tells me that the grammar's standards are more likely to remain consistently high due to their ability to 'select out' whereas the SM could be more vulnerable to an ever changing intake.

A good comprehensive in a 'stable' area is, imo, more likely to remain 'good'- if only (and hush!) because the catchment could well be dictated by house price. I am not for a second implying that poor children will do less well, I am merely suggesting that the converse however might be true: people who are prepared to buy into a catchment to guarantee their DC a place in a given school are pretty much certain to be committed to that school and their DC's ed.

We are moving later this year (we think) specifically to be in a grammar school catchment area, even though it will mean my dh being away 2 nights a week for work.

Interesting point erebus, regarding stability. I tend to agree that a grammar would be likely to maintain its standards (assuming the whole system isn't dismantled in the next few years) owing the the selective intake.

Not sure that there would be much difference between a comprehensive and a (non-grammar) secondary in this regard. Ideally we will be looking to move to what you might describe as a 'stable' area with a good school, but we can't rule out the possibility of catchment boundaries being redrawn, or a change of leadership causing instability, or even a tepid Ofsted report affecting the confidence of parents in the school.

Isla, out of curiosity, are your dcs old enough for you to have some idea whether they will get into the grammar? And do you have a plan B in case they don't?

The difference between a comprehensive and 'non-grammar' secondary is that the latter will have its top academic tier removed! And that might have social consequences (such as the 'pushy', committed MC parents whose DC fail the 11+ pulling out of the area or going private). I am not throwing any value judgements around, just something that might need to be considered.

My DCs go to a high achieving Comp. It really does well by all its intake with plenty of alternatives for the less academic (although it is highly competitive to get those college places). It' catchment also includes a large council housing estate.

Admittedly a parent told me when they were offered a house on that estate they accepted it without bothering about the condition to get their daughter into the Comp.

I would go for a Comp area, as there are lots of bright children who wouldn't pass 11+ (e.g. my son is dyslexic but is on his way to getting GCSE Maths A*).

We lived in Bucks with our two dd's until 2008. Our eldest, now 17, 'failed' the 11+ and went to our local secondary school. She was top of the class for everything but we felt she was getting second best. She took the 12+ the following year and was accepted into grammar school. She was seen to be v average at the grammar, she lost all her confidence and thought she was stupid.

We moved to Durham and both girls went to our local Community comp.The school seems to be a happy medium and they are both thriving.
Doing th 11+ and then later 12+ took over our lives, it's all we could think of and focus on. Most of our friends and nighbours were going through the same thing. It's only later, when we moved into an area without the system, that we looked back and thought "Was it worth it?"
We moved when our youngest was still at primary school so we onlyhad to cope with the grammar school once, I don't think I could have done it again.

My only regret is that my dd1 has now been to three 'big' schools and I will forever feel guilty about it. She says that she doesn't mind, she has made and kept lots of friends but it must have been v unsettling for her.

Good post, Durham. You don't really know this stuff til you've been through it, do you?

FWIW- similar experience: I'm ex-grammar. I went to college where I met a woman doing exactly the same (professional health-care )course as myself, AND she had more or less the same O levels as me (she'd done her A's at college)- BUT thing is, she'd gone thru her SM as top of the school, I'd gone thru my GS as distinctly middle of the road!

I did the 'good comp' move as I have 2 x DSs, DS1 would have passed my 11+ (but who knows, now??), but DS2 definitely wouldn't. I wanted a school that would serve both boys well.

I have no experience of the grammar system and no set view on it, but just to add a consideration, I wonder what the effects are on siblings that don't get in when older or younger ones do. I have met a fair few adults in the mental health system who said this had contributed negatively to their sense of self esteem. Also my DH's Mum is always mentioning that as his elder sister didn't pass the 11+ the others 'missed out', I don't imagine that makes her feel great! Ok, I know this is a parenting issue, but it would bother me.

Good point, Jiminy. I believe is still riles my DB that he 'failed' at 11 when his smart arse younger sister passed, a year early ! He, by any measure, was seriously short changed by a very poor SM (we are talking 1972-77, here!).

Yes, good post, Durham. (Only wish I'd been in a position to move.)

erebus - there are still dire SM around us, and even worse ones in Kent.