Teachers - I need your help please.

[ALittleBitConfused]

DS is due to start reception in Sept. The choice we have for our first choice will have 3 siblings with SEN. One with profound difficulties, one with ASD and one with behavioural probelms. All have statements with 1:1 written in them I believe.

My friend has a ds with ASD and has put down this school, so there will be 4 children with SEN in the class.

Is this likely to impact on the education of my ds if he gets in? It's an overscribed school.

bump?

I suspect the only difference with this school and the others in your area is that you know of the children with SNs. Try another school and you're likely to find the same thing, only either you won't get to know or you'll find out in the first week when your ds mentions another child's 'helper' or something.

If the children have one to ones then I doubt there'll be any difference tbh.

Is this likely to impact on the education of your ds? Yes and no - sometimes he will have less attention (though you might also argue that he'll have a tiny bit more, thanks to the very able children) and he'll learn about other people having different needs etc which imo is a very important lesson to learn.

There are all sorts of things to get worried about when your child starts reception, but how much they actually do academically in the first year or two of school is only part of the picture.

Thank you. He'll stay with this class throughout the whole of primary though so it won't just be reception.

The thing is my friend told me that the HT of this school had really tried to put her off sending her ds there and said that the HT was concerned about the impact of an additional child with a statement in that class on the other children.

She wants to send her child there but feels that the HT has guilted her into not doing. It also raises concerns for me about the HT wrt inclusivity, which I DO want for my ds.

OK well my concern now is wrt the indiscretion of the HT, and their understanding of SNs. I would have concerns about inclusivity too.

Are you certain these things were said, or might your friend be trying to put you off a place in this oversubscribed (presumably popular?) school? Apologies if this is a close friend and you are positive that this is not the case.

But I think your concern is that the HT's attitude toward SNs and that is something I think you should address to the HT.

This friend is a close friend and I am certain of her credentials. She says that the HT has said that all those 1:1s will be too many in the classroom, that the school feels that they can't meet the needs of her ds (he is guaranteed a place if they want it due to statement, but he is the only SN child without an older sibling in the school).

The HT has said that my friend should consider the needs of the other children in the class and the impact of a 4th child with SN on their learning.

The HT also said that my friend should realise that she is the only one who knows about the 4 children with SN so she is the only one with the information about the potential disruption to these other children's education. (she knows about the other children from the objection letter that the school sent the LA which was forwarded to her)

So, based on what she has said I am wondering if I want my ds to go there (as is she). I don't believe there is anything sinister about her telling me this, except to offload. I don't think she considered that I would think twice about my ds attending. Entry to this school is talk of the town but we have an excellent chance of getting in.

bump?

3 students with 1:1 support in a class is an awful lot.

If I was in your position I would not send my child there.

Only 2% of the pop have statements (including kids in special schools and home educated) - and most statements don't have 1:1 written into them. So to have 10% of kids with 1:1 when it (statistically speaking) should be less than 1% does not sound good.

It will be a bloody hard year for the teacher.

The HT said that the Head of Governors is writing a letter of appeal against my friend's ds attending

Trouble is, it's such an outstanding school for both results and inclusion (she's a new HT btw so nothing to do with her) that we have planned our way into the catchment etc. and our whole life stupidly perhaps has revolved around getting our ds into the school.

But that is the trouble. They were good with inclusion. But now they have so many statemented children it does not necessarily mean they will still be able to be good with inclusion.

I mean there's only so far everything can stretch. For example they might have a 'time out' room for ASD kids. When you have one or two ASD kids it works well. When you have 10 it no longer does......

And don't worry about the results. The school probably get's good results because parents like you move heaven and earth to get in there.

The school up the road could be just as good for your DC and not get as many level 5s etc...

My son has 2 children in his class with full statements. They are lovely kids. We all benefit because there are two extra teaching assistants in the room, ALL the children benefit from this. An extra pair of hands / eyes etc. The teaching assistants are LOVELY.

These kids have absolutely no negative impact on my son whatsoever. Infact, I think he benefits. Their parents are so lovely too!

I suppose a lot rests on how well supported the kids will be and how good the SENCO is at the school.

I understand that the SENCO is fantastic. My friend had been trying to contact her though and the HT rang back.

My friends ds is obviously a bit strange in many ways but he has no behavioural issues or maliciousness. He doesn't 'get' things and sometimes makes error judgements like gets too close to another child or walks all over their game to get from a to be without realising but he's generally calm and complient if he understands what is expected.

My ds isn't particularly his friend though. I'm just a bit that the perfect school seems so discriminatory, - except perhaps it isn't if 10% SN really IS hard for a class to accomodate.

It's not 10% SN - it's way higher than that.

'Average' would be 30% on the SEN register with 1% having a 1:1 statement.

So you are having 10% with a 1:1 statement + 30% on the SEN register.....

That great SENCO is going to be stretched awfully thin.....

My DS has ASD and can't be in a class with another ASD kid. (I mean he get's very distressed by other ASD kids). My school have been able to accommodate this because it is a 3 form entry. If it hadn't been able to accommodate it, this very excellent school, would not have been excellent for my DS.

Isn't the 10% within the 30% though?

No. There will still be the normal amount of kids with other more mild SEN. Dyslexia, ASD, Dyspraxia, ADHD, Hearing Impaired, whatever. The majority of kids with SEN don't have statements. And have to be catered for out of the school's budget....

All of these are averages. You don't know what the class make up will be like. But you would expect as well as the 3 statemented kids with severe needs to have another 6 - 9 kids who need extra help with something......

And like I said, it's possible that the kid with ASD will not get on at all with the kid with behavioural difficulties - and there will be very little the school will be able to do about it.

Oh, so the HT is being reasonable then?

The HT is being very reasonable. You don't want 2 kids with ASD in the same class. Obviously it doesn't always end in disaster - but there is no way to predict whether or not it well. So your friend should def go elsewhere.

For you the decision is not so clear cut, but I would certainly have a good look round all the alternatives.

I am all for inclusion, but because I have 2 kids who need a lot of extra help at school, I know more about SEN then I ever wanted to. And really this class sound like it is going to be an exceptionally hard year.

Very few primary classes in the whole country will have 3 children with 1:1.

Thank you Indigo. Are you a teacher?

I wonder why other teachers haven't said anything here?

1:1 at reception primary is unusual ime, to have three at that level is very unusual - their needs must be high I would have thought. Presumably there is also TA support for the class? I can see why your HT might try and put off a parent with milder SN if they genuinely thought they weren't going to get the specialist input they required. Sometimes a school can be victim of its own success in this regard. However, is the HT implying that the rest of the class will get substandard education? If your friend's dc needed more input, is the HT saying he wouldn't get it?

Yes the HT said there would be 6 adults in the classroom, which I thought was odd as 4 children with 1:1 and a CT is 5.

Would they really have a class TA as well.

AND, - can't all those adults be a good thing rather than the negative thing it sounds?

Is it perhaps that that class will have the schools entire allocation of support or something?

Yes, they will still need a TA, because those kids who need 1:1 need 1:1.

It is entirely possible that they can never be left unsupervised.

In which case they are not at all an 'extra pair of hands' in the classroom.

It's not all those adults which are a negative thing. It's the exact mix of SN kids you have described. One with profound difficulties, one with ASD and one with behavioural probelms.

Have you any idea how bad 'behavioural problems' have to be before you get a statement with 1:1?

Same with profound difficulties and ASD. Very few kids get these 1:1 statements. These kids have severe additional needs - and at least 2 of them have severe behavioral problems.

So, they might be noisy all day, they might run around the class all day, they might hurt others, they might have massive meltdowns in class.

You think a class with 3 children like this in it is going to be pleasant for your child?

Last time my child had a meltdown some of the other kids were so distressed that the SENCO rang their parents to tell them why their child was upset. And my child is the most mild end of the spectrum you can imagine. What if you get meltdowns like that 5 times a day?

If there was 1 child with a behavioural problem, 1 who was visually impaired, and 1 who with CP, that would be very different to the mix you have described.....

Otoh, cannot imagine that 27 other parents will be happy if that was the scenario, and the 1:1 would be designed to avoid that.

It might turn out to be a fantastic learning environment, it's really hard to know until the class comes together.

Thanks Kangeroo and Indigo. I have also put this in primary education to see if I can get some more views. I hope you don't mind. I have really appreciated your help so far.

It also depends on the school building, in my dc school six adults and 30 children in some of the classrooms all day every day would be too crowded.

It might mean they don't ask parent helpers in to change library books/listen to readers/help with art projects. That would impact on your ds.

Also the school needs somewhere to remove the child plus 1:1 to if necessary. Certainly wouldn't be able to find somewhere in the dc school on a regular basis.

My ds2's class has a high number of children with SEN. Five children have 1:1 support for at least some of the day. There's also a part-time class based TA. It does get very crowded in the classroom sometimes, although groups are taken to other areas of the school to work for some sessions. It makes things difficult but the school is big on inclusion and I don't feel that my ds is disadvantaged.

Thank you. I'll think about what you've all said.