What are British schools REALLY like?

[MotherSnowyMountainGoat]

I've lived abroad for nearly 20 years and my children have never lived in the UK. This means my main ideas about British schools are pretty well out of date (I left secondary school in 1988). I've learned a LOT from MN threads, but I'd be grateful for anything you can tell me (and the DC) on the following topics:

School uniform.
I told DD that we had to wear a skirt (in a vile maroon) that was neither too short nor too long, not too tight, made of a foul polyester. Then we had white socks that HAD to be below the knee, and shoes, not boots. This meant in winter it was absolutely freezing. DD thinks this cannot be true and must be a violation of children's human rights - there is no school uniform at all in Germany, and kids are brought up to wear trousers, boots and thick layers in winter. So has your DC's school uniform become more humane with respect to the weather conditions? (Yes, I know that teenagers refuse to dress up sensibly anyway, but that's different from the school preventing them from doing so.) Can girls wear trousers if they want? How many secondary schools have compulsory tie for all?

Forced outside at breaks.
We HAD to spend all breaks outside as long as there was no precipitation, however cold it was. I remember us shivering in doorways in the playground in winter, counting the minutes until the bell went (and with that wickedly cold uncovered bit between sock and skirt). Surely this can't still be legal?

Separate lessons for 'handicrafts'.
In the early 1980s there was sewing and cooking for girls (boy, was I shite at both of them), and woodwork and metalwork for boys. Now this was clearly illegal, even then, so I'm sure it can't still exist now. Does that mean everyone does all of these skills, or are they not part of the national curriculum?

School hours.
What hours do your primary and/or secondary school open for? My primary was 9 - 3.15 and my secondary was 8.55 - 3.45 - has this changed?

Sixth form.
In my day you had first year infants, second year junior, fourth form in secondary school, etc. Now there's all this 'year 8' stuff. What do you call 'sixth forms' then? At my local school I think the sixth form has closed down altogether and kids go to a college for A-levels - is this part of a general trend?

Streaming.
Is it normal for kids in comprehensive schools to be streamed? Does this start in year 7 already, on recommendations from junior school?

I've read that British schools are incredibly reluctant for pupils to be in a non-age appropriate year (a year older than the rest of the cohort, etc). Why is this? What happens if someone is ill for most of a year - surely they must accept then that someone should repeat a year?

I'm grateful for any answers you can give in what has become a rather bewildering area for me. There really is no ulterior motive - we're not planning on coming back to the UK at all. I simply want my kids to understand the differences to their own experience of school.

Most schools allow girls to wear uniform trousers and still have a tie. (Not sure about private schools, maybe they still have only skirts)

Breaks are still outside

Handicrafts has become 'technical subjects' and boys and girls both do them, but there's more choice.

School hours the same.

Most schools still do some kind of streaming from year 7.

British schools almost never allow people to be out of year. If you were ill for a year - tough. However the upside of that is that the classes are more 'differentiated' ie the teachers are expected to teach everyone in their class regardless of their attainment / ability.

I think the term 'British' also includes Scotland - where the education system is completely different and as I understand it, it's quite normal for pupils to be held back a year from their peers.

Most of our secondary uniforms have ties only for the boys. Primary school kids (both boys and girls) usually have to wear ties though.

Where I grew up, kids still go on to the school sixth form, but where I live in Manchester now, schools only go up to 16 and kids do have to go to college for A levels.

My old school doesn't have streaming for year 7/1st year seniors. But as far as I can see it work here is far more differentiated than in Europe ( a lot of Europeans in DD's school notice that and are fairly impressed).

Shosh I dont know ANY child in scotland who's ever been held back a year!
You can delay your DC starting school until 5 instead of 4 but the child will still be in with children of the same age.
I believe the cut off point is that Children starting school must be 4 years old by the end of February to start School in August.

School Uniform: In almost all schools ( state and private) children wear Uniform but the rules regarding them vary greatly.
Many schools now allow girls to wear smart black dress trousers.
Ties are not as common at primary school age as they once were as many schools now have sweatshirts in the school colour with school badge on it that can be worn instead.
In High school many still wear ties althought the lower years do often still wear sweatshirts with school badge.
Blazers aren't as common as they once were but many schools are trying to encourge the seniour pupils to wear blazer and tie.

Outside: thats a bit mixed too but as long as it isn't raining heavy, snowing or below -1 many schools send children out to play.
But if the weather is bad they are usually sent to play in their classroom.

Separate lessons for 'handicrafts' That no longer happens all pupils if it is in a mixed school attend the same lessons.
My old catholic school in the 90's seperated boys and girls for P.E and that was seen as very old fashioned at the time.

School hours:
In scotland it's a bit different it's usually 9am - 3pm in Primary and in Secondary it's 8:50/9am - 3:30pm
In the Edinburgh and Lothian area of Scotland School finished on a Friday (Primary and secondary) by 12:30pm but this is very unusual compared to the rest of the UK.

In England mpst primary schools finish between 3:20-30pm

If your DC was to attend a private school their hours may be slightly longer at primary age I know many schools with a 8:30/45am start and finish around 3:30/45pm

Not got much knowledge of the English High schools system but I think it varys from regions.
In Scotland we've never had 6th form it's always been S1-S6.

Streaming Little formal Streaming happens at primary level in later years children are usually put into groups for Maths and English and it's fairly easy for them to work out where they are in the system.

In High school it's not that common to be streamed for the first year or two. They don't start proper streaming until around pupils are choosing their subjects to study in exams so say around aged 14.

In state schools it is very rare that a pupil is kept back a year mainly because (I think) of goverment policy on inclusion for all. Many children with a wide range of disabilities (from Downs syndrome to Autism) are taught in normal state schools in their proper year.
There is also little (other than SATS which are not done in Scotland) testing at Primary school age so they don't really have much formally to measure the class by so would find it hard to justify on keeping a child back.

Another thing that may intrest you which is fairly different is the lack on the whole of competition this is most evident during sports day when everyone who takes part is considered a winner.

I have a little knowledge of the German system I lived in Munich about 8 years ago.
The grading system and keeping pupils back surprised me as did the whole two school system when they go to senior school.
On the other hand I loved the shorter school days ( mind you did find it odd they would then get hours of H/W!)and starting school at 6 instead of 4 years old.

It varies greatly from area to area and school to school so there is no definitive answer. Each country has different systems and different curricula.

Our uniform if pretty relaxed (school colours and nothing outrageous)

Breaks = outdoors all weathers rain/hail/sleet/snow unless it is dangerous (recent icy playground)

Separate lessons - not split by gender

School hours
8.45 -3.30

Streaming - none in primary

Scotland as well here

hmm, I know of quite a few pupils who have been allowed to move down a year - usually for social and emotional reasons rather than academic though

no schools stream, not that I know of - they set, but they don't stream

In primaries they're usually set within the class (reading groups, maths groups) some primaries do it within a whole year group and some do it with an even wider group

At secondary, most schools set for Maths and English and these sets are then used as classes for other subjects up until S3 when they go into their exam classes which are all set by ability in that subject (except non-exam subjects like PSE) but that's all in the process of changing because of teh new curriculum...

When I was at school in the dark ages, girls could wear trousers, and boys and girls did all subjects.

At my DCs school there is a strict uniform (two styles of skirt, knee length and one style of girls trousers, ties for boys and girls). However in bad weather (rare) they usually allow them to wear sensible for weather Mufti. I have worked for a US airline which had a far stricter uniform (including guidelines on underwear) so I don't think any human rights are breached by school uniforms.

Children usually start school at 4 in reception they school years in England are then numbered consecutively after that, sixth form is usually still called upper and lower sixth but is also called years 12 and 13.

If someone is held down a year that means they are expected to catch up with their peers by repeating a year (something that is illogical as they may only be 3 or 6 month behind, or may be working slower, so may catch up one year but just fall behind again). I have known people go back a year during the exam years if they miss a lot of time due to illness, the rest of the time teachers should be able to help them catch up. There is a lot of repetition (for deeper learning), and children frequently enter the stystem at all kinds of ages with little or no English and/or little or no previous education. Teachers are trained and expected to cope with this.

Few schools stream, often they set, the better ones based on individual ability for the subjects which are set.

My DCs school allows them in to various rooms for breaks (library, certain classrooms to catch up on coursework etc.) They also work 8:30 to 3:15, but school hours vary a lot around here.

Maybe they should get some UK penfriends.

For school uniform dd1 can wear

White blouse, shirt or polo shirt
Grey skirt, trousers or pinfore
Royal blue cardigan or jumper
White or grey socks (any length) or grey tights
Black shoes or winter boots

Outside breaks - dd1 tells me they are not allowed out if it is snowing for health and safety reasons . The same if it is icy. They are nor allowed out if it is raining. If is just cold they can go out or stay in the 'drama room'. In the summer they have to go out.

She has no seperate lessons.

School time is 8:45am until 3:15am. They don't actually start learning until 9am but they like them to have time to get in and settled down.

My children have attended two primary schools so far in England.

School uniform: no ties, girls can wear trousers or skirts normally with tights and boots are allowed. Basically as long as there are no logos showing they can wear what they want in school uniform colours.

School hours: 8:45 til 3:30pm.

They are outside playing every day, 3 times a day.

In both schools streaming started in Y1. They get streamed according to ability in English and Maths. I know this to be true in a lot of schools around here.

No separate boy/girl sessions - ha ha ha that one made me chuckle!

No repeating a year. Which I am so grateful for. I repeated a year at school when I was 16 and it was the most humiliating, degrading experience ever. Would have been much better to go on and get a bit of support.

All based on state schools

School uniform

Became more informal in the 1990s (school sweatshirts, girls in trousers) but there seems to be a move back towards blazers and ties

School hours

8.45 - 3.30

Outdoor break - varies at secondary schools. At primary school, they aren't expected to go out if the weather is very bad

Streaming

Many secondary schools stream from year 7 using CAT scores. Others start in year 8.

Primary schools - around us, the children are grouped from reception onwards, with work differentiated between groups.

Boy - girl - this does not happen anymore

whoops - meant setting not streaming.

Streaming is when tutor groups as well as subject teaching is setted.

So, most children in a mixed ability tutor group but get setted for different subjects.

Yes sorry I meant setting not streaming too!

Uniform - compulsory round here but girls are allowed to wear trousers. All have to wear ties.

Forced outside for break - yes at Primary unless pouring. HT very keen on it - children need some time outside and I think they notice a difference in behaviour when they are kept in due to bad weather (pouring rain, not drizzle, snow and ice). Secondary school seems to be more lax but DS1 hasn't started yet so don't know for sure.

No splitting by gender for crafts - everybody does DT, cooking, sewing etc.

School hours about the same - give or take 5 mins.

Streaming - some streaming for literacy and maths in primary here. Still stream in secondary as they have done since I was at school (left in '82)

Some children are held back due to SEN in primary but not in secondary afaik. You are more likely (although not guaranteed) to get extra help to catch up. No repeating of years - I can't see how that would work anyway but surely it affects very few children?

6th Forms are still 6th forms - our local one is anyway. The old technical college calles itself and FE college now though.

My dd's attended/attend the local all girls secondary. It has a strict uniform policy of tartan skirt which should be on the knee, white blouse with school logo and school V neck jumper again with logo, there is also a 'regulation' pe kit. The uniform can only be bought from 2 suppliers & costs a small fortune! This is a state school, rated outstanding & in the top 100 in the country.
DD1 has now moved onto 6th form, & as the school doesn't have a 6th form (none of the schools in our town do) she had a choice of the local large 6th form college, or 6th forms attached to other secondary schools in nearby towns. She decided to attend a 6th form in a local small town which is styled as a Community Secondary School & 6th Form College, she is thriving there & is positive (as we are) that she made the right choice, as friends of hers who went onto the local college are not all enjoying it & some I think are regretting their decision.

At secondary school there doesn't seem to be compulsory outside time at breaks, although they can sometimes be banned from their form rooms due to behaviour/untidyness issues & therefore have to be in the dining/main school hall or outside at breaks.

Handcrafts are now known as Design Technology (DT) and consist of Food Technology, Graphics, Resistant Materials, Electronics & Textiles, they do so many weeks of each area per school year on a rotation basis & then can choose to do one of the areas for GCSE if they want to. Art is timetabled separately in addition to the DT lessons.

School hours are 8.25 to 3 at dd 2's secondary school, 8.35 to 3.10 at dd1's 6th form and 8.55 to (at the lataest dependent on which key stage) 3.20 at the local primary school.

Straming, there is no streaming as in the old comprehensives, but subjects are 'set' from part way through year 7 (English, Maths & Science), with the humanities & languages set in years 8 & 9 as well. Then when they start GCSE's they are then set in several subjects, but that can be a bit looser because of timetabling requirements for different subjects being taken.

In 6th form though, there are no sets as you are taking usually 4 subjects & as long as they can be timetabled together ok the students end up with 'free' periods/study time at different times during the week.

With regards to being 'held back' it is unusual, but not impossible, dd1 had a girl in her form who had been back yeared due to needing an extra year through learning difficulties & I know of one in the local primary who was back yeared for a similar problem.

Hope this has helped clear up a few queries for you.

Allnightlong - nothing to do with thread but you know Scottish stuff so just wanted to ask a question.

Is it true that for Scottish universities there are no fees? Sorry but very out of touch here.

Also, I understand that your school year starts in August...so for all the English born people who moan about their child being 'in the wrong year' - could they move to Scotland and be in the next academic year back?

Shosh Sort of about Uni your first degree is basically free but you must be living in Scotland for a certain number of years before you eligble to apply for it you can be English and suddenly decide to go to uni in Scotland for free.

The school thing kind of hard to tell tbh honest

In scotland the school years go
Primary 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7.
You start Primary 1 in middle of August you must be at least 4 1/2 years old but if your child isn't 5 years old by August then you can refuse it's place and he can attend next year.

From what I can gather you are out right back into your correct year in England according to their system.
One thing that sometimes puts kids out is that they go down a number due to Scottish Schools calling reception P1.
I remember one of my English cousins being very oput out that I was in a 'higher year' than her even thought we are very close in age.

One thing that I've found fairly different between the systems is that in Scottish state schools P1 start of half days and stay that way at least until the first half term.
I think some still do half days up until easter term but that isn't as common.

But yes after all that rambling if you weren't happy with the English system you could move north and the child not start school until they are 5 years old and they would still be entitiled to stay in their nursery class.

In London and other cities which are v ethnically mixed, girls are almost always allowed to wear trousers for religious reasons.

mine are at school in canada and outdoor play is compulsory 3xday unless it is below -20. they soon learn to remember their gloves.

madwomen I think the issue used to be girls not being allowed to wear trousers and flimsy school uniforms not so much going outside.

Thanks for all the answers - sorry for not replying earlier, had a work crisis.

I totally support kids being outside when it's cold, as allnightlong says, the problem is when girls are forced to wear inherently cold uniforms outside (skirts with no tights, as was the case in the 80s) - believe me, my kids are used to minus 10 in Central Europe and they can cope with the cold well, but only when they're wrapped up with trousers, tights and goretexed boots. I'm relieved girls can wear trousers now if they choose.
madwoman minus 20 is seriously hardcore. Respect to the Canadian attitude to winter.

badgerhead - how on earth do the children cope in cold and snowy weather if they're wearing tartan skirts? I don't understand the supposed link between impractical (and occasionally silly) uniform and good academic results.

I'd never heard of DT. It sounds good.

Shoshana "But as far as I can see it work here is far more differentiated than in Europe" - I get that impression too, from what I've read on threads here. German schools are finally starting to catch onto the idea, but the older teachers are having a hard time putting it into practice. The traditional idea is 'anyone who doesn't understand what the teacher says must be a bit thick' - I read that 50% of kids in Germany have to repeat at least one school year.

I like the idea of setting for individual subjects - must be a timetabling nightmare, though.

"Maybe they should get some UK penfriends."Actually they do have a fair bit of contact with people in the UK, as they attend an international school where quite a few people used to live in Britain and went to British schools. But they clearly never talked about this kind of stuff together, since DD didn't know about it at all. And their Irish cousins are homed edded, so they have very little idea about schools.

Thanks all once more for your input.