Help - DH is suddenly insisting on Steiner

[blushbabybambu]

With a month to go till the deadline for submitting state school applications dh is suddenly strongly in favor of steiner waldorf.
Three years ago we have attended an open day and I alone attended a morning introduction. I was nt happy and we have since looked at other schools.

But now dh is refusing to listen to my concerns both about what I saw on my whole school tour (he's just seen the kindy) and with what others who have gone through the expeience have said on this and other forums. He simply counters any concerns I raise by saying that I can homeschool out of school hours and that we can review the situation when ds is 7 (and then presumably he thinks we can change schools). I feel that it is hugely shortsighted to start down a road without due consideration to where it may lead. Even ignoring the anthroposophy underpinning the approach (and my disturbed nights show I'm finding that hard to do) I think that a transition at 7 will be too hard a mountain to climb.
Has anyone been down this path before?

Why would he be so keen on sending his child to a Steiner school while admitting the child might need to be home schooled at the same time in order to actually learn something?

Does he have some traumatic association with mainstream schools that he wants to save your DC from? Was he bullied or picked on by teachers? (This is not something a child would avoid in a Steiner school, incidentally -- the unspoken expectations can leave a child wondering what on earth is wrong with him or her and behaviour by other DCs is seen as karmic so intervention to stop bullying or domineering behaviour does not happen.) Did he struggle academically?

I personally think Montessori is a better idea for fostering academic and intellectual growth and acknowledging/rewarding curiosity and creativity.

My DCs started school in the US where the approach is far less formally academic until about age 6 or 7 -- far from hurting them, I think it's a very good idea, especially from an emotional development pov. I don't think the relatively late start to formal academic work is that much of an issue, but it's the aspect of dealing with some big secret thing that you as a parent are not included in that would really bother me.

One of the DDs went to a watercolour class taught by a Steiner teacher when she was about 3 or 4. (Wet on wet technique, paper with rounded corners.) I thought her dreamy efforts were lovely, but the teacher made it clear that she expected DD to produce something other than that while still not telling her what exactly it was that she should be doing -- DD herself sensed that the teacher was disappointed in her pictures and the experience bothered me for years until I came across some articles on the net that suggested DD's paintings were inadequate because they were just swirls of colour and had no hint of any shapes in them.

You might want to ask your DH at what age these ex-Steiner pupils did their degrees.

Ime, many do go on to further education but very often at a much later age than usual, simply because there is neither the expectation nor the academic grounding to be able to do so when at a Steiner school.

This may be fine for some people, but not everyone can afford to/ wants to wait to find their 'direction in life' before completing their education and joining the world of work.

I think any edicatuion system that expects children to do something at a set age is going to fail some children - so the UK system, with its emphasis on early formal learning/literacy is stifling in one way, the Steiner system with its refusal to allow learning before age 7 is the same. On the whole, the Montessori system pretty much does it for me - I went through a Montessori primary in the Netherlands and was allowed to progress as quickly as I needed to, and the school got in work at secondary school level for me. We have no Montessori nearby and I'd never go for Steiner because of all the religious weirdness involved, but fortunately we have good schools in our area and I have two early readers so they don't feel pressured by the overly formal UK system.

First thing I'm going to say is: don't only use threads like this one to make your decision. Go and talk to parents at the school or, on an open day or a tour of the school, take the opportunity to talk to the older students. Threads like this really attract a lot of people who feel very strongly about Steiner - usually negatively, but also the rare nutjobs who act like Rudolf Steiner is the messiah.

Steiner schools are honestly not religious - I've just graduated from one, and I have an understanding of all religions equally. Regarding Anthroposophy (if I've spelt that right...!) I don't really know what it is, but from what I've just seen on wikipedia, the only bits of it which have been present in my school life are the bits which encourage respect for the planet, yourself and all people.

Steiner schools don't suit everybody, but I think if you're undecided, it's worth giving them a chance. I know of some people who put their children in the school until class five, when they were moved to a State school so that they cold get ten GCSEs etc. This really is an option, as by this age you're at exactly the same level as state school children. Although Steiner children don't get formal reading lessons until they are seven, when they have learned the alphabet and the sounds they are usually capable of reading novels etc. within a year, judging by my experience (myself, many siblings and cousins and the rest of my class at school).

Most of my friends from school have recently moved to the local sixth form college, and we all agree that at the Steiner school we studied subjects in far more depth and with greater understanding - the emphasis was on learning and experiencing rather than memorising the information necessary to pass exams.

If you're worried about academics, then I don't think you need to be. At my school, the average GCSE mark was an A and in the past two years, four students (out of around thirty five) have gone from the local sixth form college into Oxford, Cambridge or UCL. Universities and colleges do recognise the merits of Steiner education and are more than willing to accept Steiner students.

However, all Steiner schools are different, and whilst I think that what I am saying is true, it might not apply to your local school. I think the best way to find out about the school is to take your children to the school events (summer/advent fairs) and talk to parents and students informally. This way you will get to see your child's potential classmates interact with each other and also be able to get a more honest account of the school.

(sorry...I've just read more) regarding science, I'm now studying all the sciences at my local (state run) sixth form college. My passion for science has QUICKLY been subdued. At my Steiner school I was allowed to experiment freely and the point of the science lessons was dicovery. At sixth form, the science lessons are a transfer of information, nothing more. What suprises me most, however, is all of my classmates enthusing about how interesting and exciting the lessons are compared to their lessons at school. This has seriously convinced me that Steiner schools really are better in all areas, something which I wasn't sure of before.

I know that you've already made your decision about what school to send your child to, but y'know...some other potential Steiner parent may come and see this and be pursuaded :D

iwillmarryharry -

It's quite possible to teach science badly and you may well be right that A level science is flawed, although if your classmates are enjoying the lessons the teachers may be rather good. That's encouraging. But your attitude demonstrates that anthroposophy has not encouraged in you 'respect for the planet, yourself and all people.' In reality you give every impression of having disdain for 'other people' - do your classmates know how you feel about their schools and their education? That you're convinced Steiner schools are better in all areas? That their excitement convinces you of your own superiority?

You claim that threads like this on mumsnet attract 'the rare nutjobs who act like Rudolf Steiner is the messiah.' Could you indicate who on this thread is a 'nutjob'? Actually I have a fair idea who you mean (although he's not on this thread) and I have to tell you that it's that very nutjob who babysits Wiki, where you went to read about anthroposophy. In order to understand the distress of some of the mothers who have posted here you may have to find out what anthroposophy is, and not just from the nutjob. Of course you don't have to do so but if you intend to post on the tail-end of every Steiner thread on this forum it would be a good idea. I don't see how you can stay ignorant of the very philosophy that informed your education and at the same time implicitly or explicitly criticise those parents who feel negatively about Steiner ed - after encountering the very real human consequences of that philosophy in action. Their criticisms are not due to a rogue teacher or a rogue school or a misunderstanding or a disgruntled parent but are a sane reaction to a system steeped in 'spiritual' science. They would have preferred to have been told at the outset what they were buying into. The schools show no sign that they intend greater honesty as a result of such criticism.

I've a ds at the same stage as you and I can't see him posting on mumsnet to defend anything, at least without significant incentive. And yes, he was at a (large, well-established) Steiner school for a significant part of his school-life and it was far from good. So we are not uninformed.

Here's a <a class="break-all" href="http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=no&u=humanist.no/et_steinerbarns_bekjennelser.html&ei=xw5kTZCMG8-v4Qb4vYGnCg&sa=X&oi=translate&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CB0Q7gEwAFAB&prev=/search%3Fq%3Dhumanist.no/et_steinerbarns_bekjennelser.html%26hl%3Den%26client%3Dgmail%26rls%3Dgm%26prmd%3Divns" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">great account by a former Steiner student in Norway, who did find out for herself about anthroposophy. It's in Norwegian so this is a google translate. Google Chrome will do a better job with the original.

I've inky known 2 children who went to Steiner schools but the vision of DD, aged 8 patiently teaching these two 10 year olds basic maths concepts will stay with me forever. They went to a state secondary school where they both needed intense remedial help to bring them up to the expected level

It could have been the school, it could have been the children, but I found their ignorance quite chilling

Don't do it. See previous threads where concerns are discussed.

Some weirdos do indeed pop up whenever Waldorf Steiner is discussed on MN. Again, see previous threads if in doubt.

The school's entire philosophy is based on Steiner's belief in reincarnation. Children say a prayer every morning that talk about "the spirit that lives in me" etc. They are not taught anything intellectual (like, reading & writing) until they are about 7 because that is when the adult teeth start coming in, and that is when Steiner said the reincarnation of that old spirit in this new body is complete.

Children are supposed to be kept away from electronic devices like TV because Steiner said a devil called Ahriman speaks from out of them.

There is quite a bit more. Last time I looked, Steiner schools were in the French government's list of cults, right next to Scientology, by the way.

ZOMBIE
All the Steiner threads have crawled out of their graves today, I guess.

Great he's agreed what's best for your DS. If he wavers again arrange two school visits back to back if the Steiner and your 1st choice school.

I know lots of people who have had a negative experience of Steiner.

I've posted this before so forgive me for repeating.

My two nieces were Steiner ed. Dsis was completely evangelical about it. IMO there is good and bad. DNs and their cousins and all their friends were also Steiner ed. They are intelligent, articulate and confident, and put me in mind of 'normal' privately educated kids. All went to university at the normal age and some went to Oxford. Although they only took 3 gcse's, in Maths, English and science, they were educated in all other subjects. Lots of emphasis on artistic and physical expression. Lots of mainstream universities consider a Steiner education as an alternative to the usual amount of gcse's, so it doesn't hamper getting into uni. I have noticed though that most of them then seem to struggle to settle down into the real world, drop out, 'go travelling' for extended periods (not saying that's a good or bad thing), and have a certain cliquey-ness about being Steiner. Lots of jargon, 'oh, it's a Steiner thing', etc.

There is a huge commitment expected from the parents (rota for the parents to clean the school for example, non-negotiable), and non-participation in school events is not tolerated, huge emphasis on embracing the ethos (dsis said she was often made to feel not Steiner-y enough) and very, very middle class. Like all schools it had the equivalent of the PTA/in-crowd.

My dsis has mixed feelings about whether she did the right thing. The dn's think she did.

Sorry so long, but I wanted to answer the op with my family's experience, and try and put both sides.