another angle on the state v private debate (DM link)

[santaslayer]

www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-1336029/Posh-pop-stars-Lily-Allen-Florence-Welch--60-cent-went-public-school.html

So according to this article, if you want your DCs to be popstars you should educate them privatly.

Oh, and the demise of the working class rocker is due to the abolition of grammar schools.

Networking.
Money.
Contacts.

Not surprising really. Although they hide it most of them play instruments and understand the fundamentals of music because of their posh schooling. Plus while state schools cut drama and music budgets they seem to be increasing them at independent schools.

Could explain why popular music seems to have lost it's bite.

The same thing is happening in sport. Privately educated children will dominate most sports in a few years.

Or privately educated South African born English sportsmen will dominate sport!

Well private schools teach sports and music, and state schools don't (really)

So is it any surprise that musicians in whatever field and sportspeople mainly hail from independent schools?

stoatsrevenge - whilst I wouldn't argue that those three things help, there are other skills you need.

I am a writer, so my industry is perhaps analogous to music.
Without doubt, the biggest skills you need to 'make it' are perseverence and self belief.

doesn't a famous name help?

it seems nigh-on impossible to get published without being someones daughter/son / cousin...or someone people have heard of somewhere else.

Nonsense.

When I wrote my first novel I had no contacts whatsoever. I just subbed it to agents like tthe vast majority of writers.

Every week there are hundreds of new titles coming out. A tiny minority are by famous people.

Indeed all the writers I know, just wrote a book and subbed it the hard way. I don't know any slebs.

Agree about the sport. We can make a direct compasions as DS1 had his Y6 is a local indie, DS2 is in Y6 at the local outstanding state primary. In the indie, everyone who wants to can partipate in competitive sport - eg football they have teams A-E, so everyone has teh opportunity to an represent the school at a level they can achieve, and there is fluid movement between the teams. Thye have about 7 hiurs a week of timetabled PE, or all tyoes, so those who don't like team games get to do others.
In the state primary in Y6 there are occasional half-heaterd matches with other schools, cancelled for trivial reasons, no proper coaching, and buggins turn for who gets to play so no coherence in the team, adn most players are left out most of the time.

my good friend wot works in publishing said otherwise....although she was in non-fiction #(misery memoirs, cookbooks, gardening)

I'm also a writer litchick and am a nobody in terms of illustrious forebears, but I disagree with you about the benefits of contacts. I contacted agents recommended to me by friends in publishing and it definitely helped me in the first instance (though being friends with the agents themselves would have probably helped me more). And a disproportionate amount of my published contemporaries come from famous families or very well connected ones. I'm not saying their work wasn't good, but as you know lots of good work doesn't ever find a publisher. Unfortunately in any crowded field (eg music, acting etc), contacts might just give someone the edge.

Edgar - I think non-fiction is different.

Obviously a reader will only pick up a NF book if they think they can trust the writer's expertise. So you have to be well known in your field, or have some USP that a reader can trust.

Fiction is different, I feel.

Obviously, if someone has a contact, it won't hurt, but the majority of books still come from the slush pile. Agents pay people to read them.
That's how everyone from JKR to Lee Child got started.

Polly - yes a lot of good work never finds a publisher, but far more books are published than has ever been the case in history.
The last ten years have been a golden time for finding a publisher, I think.

Set to change though. The publishing houses are reducing their lists in an attempt to sell more copies of fewer titles. Like most writers I have mixed feelings about this.

Look, I'm not saying contacts are invaluable, I'm just saying they're not necessary. Writers can and do break through without them.

But I tink the myth persists because those who face rejection are seeking an easy get out clause -oh I don't have contacts, that's why.
I also think there's a pervading attitude among readers that writing is easy, something they could do if only they had the time and the contacts.

Litchick I'm so with you on your last point. It's amazing how many people find the novel that they'd like to write but haven't yet actually written to be so much more worthy of discussion than any published works.

I think it's because everyone can read, that they think they can write.

And the better a book is, the less craft is on display, which makes the whole exercise look even more darn doable.

I am always madly supportive of other writers, but I insist they write at least 50k until I will even entertain a proper look at and discussion of their work.

Ok - I just wanted to add to this..
Im from a council estate in a very rough part of london and I was a child actress. In films and commericals - local state educated. part time stage school - money I earned paid for fees.. and also from a very working class family - It can be done!

Of course - I'm from a sink estate too.

But I don't think there's any argument that the majority of folk in the arts are from middle class backgrounds and that an inordiante number have been privately educated.

I thought privately educated children already dominated sport - at least they do in rugby, cricket, sailing and rowing. Our local state schools offer all of those sports so there is no reason why that should be the case.

Our local grammar is a performing arts special school although I think that is unusual.

Umm our local secondaries all offer rowing, but the local Public school offered a full sixth form scholarship to the best boy at rowing. So maybe this kind of creaming of the best talent explains their dominance?

Although the local comp is doing very well at producing world class canoeists.

MrsGuy - think I know which indie you are talking about and I agree its sports provision in out of this world and the local state schools, though they are some of the best in the country, just can't compete.

Sport is one of those areas that needs a lot of money pumped into it to provide good coaching.

Surely the reason more pop stars come from wealthier backgrounds is because their parents can afford to support them while they try to break into the industry. They don't have to take other low paid jobs, using up all their time and energy, just to put a roof over their head and food on the table.

Hmmm ...I think that's a little simplistic.

Along the same lines of only contacts will get you a book deal.

Obviously, parental support helps in whatever field a child wishes to enter. But breaking into the music industry requires a host of skills that having a rich Daddy in itself won't cover.

I do think we have a tendency in this country not to recognise how hard working and how talented some people are.
We seem to choose to point out how undeserving they are of their success.

I hear all the time 'oh I could do that if I had their contacts/money/education.'
It seems so bitter and an excuse, frankly.

"But breaking into the music industry requires a host of skills that having a rich Daddy in itself won't cover." yeah right !

Sadly for some people its hard to admit that other people are just better/more talented/harder working,so its easy to fall back on the usual excuses,at least so far no one has blamed it on The Freemasons....

"who you know" is very prevalent in all media jobs, it is common knowledge. Just look at Kirsty Allsopp for example. Is she really talented at home decoration. I think not, she just had a daddy with connections. It is not always the case but it often helps a great deal.