Who decides class size in fee-paying schools?

[Solo2]

Along with several parents, I'm increasingly worried about the large class size of my DCs school. It's a fee-paying school (which as a single mum, I struggle to pay) and other local similar schools have anything from 15 to 20 per class. My DCs school has 26 in some subject classes (that are set) and 24/25 in each of three classes for Year 5. This is a much larger cohort than the school promised the parents and larger than normal for the school, which is undergoing expansion.

Given the vast fees and the fact that it's highly competitive to get in (the only academically selective private one locally), I feel we're not getting our money's worth and want to talk to the hadmaster about this, as other parents have done.

Before I do, it would be helpful to know whether or not he has any power at all in changing things - or will this be down to the school governors? I'm afraid I know nothing about this kind of thing. I presume the more parents complain, the better?

Also, can anyone cite me some evidence indicating that smaller class sizes produce better results, even among bright children who, according to the head, benefit from being with a larger peer group to 'spark off ideas'. This argument is now wearing thin as even academically selected children have differing learning styles and needs and inevitably, there's still a range of ability. The brightest ones don't seem to be doing as well as they might and those with certain challenges (like my DCs) can't get the individual attention they need.

I want to go in forearmed with facts and figures and some background knowledge before I see the head. Can anyone here help please?

Do you think your DCs are performing below their potential?

I think it is agreed as a "policy" by head and governors which should be available on your website or in hard copy from the Admissions Secretary/Bursar. Ours states 20 for years 3-8 but we have had occasional instances of 21 where they have accommodated siblings. In reality the children are increasingly taught in sets as they get older which are smaller groups anyway. Also worth checking previous ISI report to see what was stated there.

Thanks. Parents were told that for our cohort - starting in Yr 3, there would be no more than 22 in each of the three classes. this crept up and up as more children filtered in, usually mid-term/ mid-year.

The only subject currently set is Maths which has 26 in top and middle group (my sons are in the middle group but now struggling) and 20 in the bottom group which is alos the only group to have a full-time TA too

All other subjects have 24 or 25 per class.

So basically, what was promised hasn't transpired and I think my DCs and other childrne we know about, from the brightest to those struggling even more - or being given a raw deal. From what I've now gleaned, staff also are finding the larger class size hard and the staff turnover has been unprecedented in the last 2 yrs.

But will parent-power make any real difference? Would it be that the school feel they can't accomodate say a fourth Yr 5 - giving each group about 18 children - nor afford the extra teachers? Could they, mid-year, pay for 2 or 3 f/t TAs for Yr 5 - or again, is this something that just would never happen?

We parents are aware that there's a huge waiting list to get into the school and so the school can't be THAT motivated to retain pupils when their spaces can easily be filled.

What arguments/ strategies might help at this point, do you think and has anyone else ever been in a similar situation and managed to effect real change in the school?

Ours is an independent fee paying prep. The parents effectively decide, through the governing body. We did at one point have a few classes that were deemed too small (12 or 13). The teachers came to us and made a case for larger class sizes as they felt the children would benefit from a larger group. But around 20-22 is our optimum. If you are paying it seems to me that you have the right (if it is a majority opinion) to ask for a change...?

At DC's prep it is fifteen for reception increasing to twenty in year three,I believe.

This is a commitment made by the school so cannot be increased.
DS howver is in a bright year ( as must coicidently happen sometimes, I suppose) and there are more then twenty in some of the top sets.

I suspect this has been a case of needing bums on seats in circumstances where private schools are worried about their financial position. MOst private schools will not turn paying students away in these times....despite what the class size policy says. The policy is just that - not a term of the contract so you have no leal redress for breach of contract.

By all means go in and register your disquiet but actually what are you going to do about it? Leave the school? If not you will have to just suck it up I'm afraid as they are hardly going to tell the "extra" children to leave. HArsh but true!

AFAIK the 'evidence' suggests that class size only makes a difference to attainment in the transition years. So, generally speaking, reception (i.e first year of school proper) and Year 7 (i.e first year of Senior School proper). Will try and find a link.

The small class size thing is all a bit of a fallacy. Specialist teaching is the important factor when you're looking at Prep schools I think.

Maybe go in and politely ask about the reasoning behind class size increase.

Due to the financial climate it may be that the school is trying to balance it's books without increasing the financial burden on parents. If the class sizes across the school have increased from 20 to 25 (25% increase), the alternative may be a 25% increase in fees??? (stress!)

Also, the school may be covering their back in the short term as they may anticipate certain children leaving mid-year.

Global economic nightmare is stress for everybody, you may be happy with the increased class sizes once you find out the school's theory behind the change.

INeedALieIn, Yr 5, where my twins are, is the largest cohort. Other year groups have about 22 per class or less. So our cohort are getting a bad deal compared with others.

School fees continue to rise and threshold for bursaries to rise also (I used to get a miniscule one but it was completely withdrawn from this yr as my self-employed earnings just tipped over the mark last yr).

Yes, I think that the school expected some children to leave cos of the recession and no one did.

Interesting to hear about small class size not enhancing achievement. I'm surprised. I'm biased because at my old school, class sizes were v v small with only about 6 per subject by A levels.

My sons Maths teacher told me recently that this Yr 5 cohort are well down in Maths achievement overall compared to previous yrs and admittied, in the same breath, that this was the largest cohort they've ever managed. It wasn't difficult to see the point he was implying.

But you're right about what can I do, personally, I'm not going to withdraw my DCs from the school. I think if I'm one of several parents to go in and voice disquiet to the head that this might begin to have some effect. At the v least, I want to ask why they didn't - as they'd promised they WOULD do - employ a full-time TA for the Yr 5 - albeit shared over 3 classes.

From a teachers point of view, smaller class size equals less marking and possibly less preparation depending on the range of abilities and learning styles presented.

From a pupils point of view it may mean 5 groups of five instead of 4 groups of five in maths lessons.

Think about what that means in terms of one to one time with the teacher:

In a fifty minute lesson, the average amount of time per group would be 10 minutes if there were 5 groups and 12.5 minutes in there were 4 groups. That's an extra 2.5 minutes per group. I make that just over half a minute extra per person per fifty minute lesson. Now whether or not that half a minute would outweigh the possible benefit of having another group in terms of fine tuning the differentiation or just the variety of ideas that having more pupils brings is for you to judge. I don't think so.

If your DC's math teacher means to seriously imply that he cannot ensure that each child in a class of 25 reaches their potential, that's a serious matter and the one that I would be taking up with the Head.

There isn't actually any evidence to suggest that class sizes influence attainment. It all depends on the teacher.

I do have evidence from studies that this is the case; unfortunately I appear to have left the book containing said evidence in my friend's car, so I can't fish it out right now.

When I get it back I'll pass on the information to you.

A class of 25 is not large and the difference between a class of 22 and 25 is negligible, IME. I've only ever taught in the state sector.

I can understand you being annoyed though, if they're not delivering on their promises.

Dylan William 'Content then Process' 2007 (this explores the class size issue).

Guy Claxton quotes William in 'What's the Point of School':

'Class size only begins to make a significant difference when you get down to around fifteen per class'.

Just to add almost everything I've read suggests that the quality of the teacher is more important than anything else.

It was my understanding that the issue is the ability of the teacher and the similarity in ability within the class ('setting', in other words). I believe it was Xenia who mentioned a while ago that her DCs were in classes of 25 in very competitive and expensive schools in north London but that they 'flew' because all the DCs were bright! To a large extent, I think that's true. My girls GS had 30 per class, falling to perhaps 25 in 'O' level groups, but we all got 2 or 3 A levels.
So, I understand that class size only becomes a real problem if you have widely varying abilities within that class or discipline issues which a private school shouldn't suffer.

Fwiw, my DSs state school primary classes have 22 per class and a TA each, but that was the luck of the demographic draw. I don't think it actually made much difference to the DCs academic attainment, though, but they had a more enjoyable experience because they had so much more room to move about in.

The argument of the head teacher is that larger class size is indeed beneficial for bright children. However, this is the largest cohort yet and, whilst we were also told it was one of the best, when they selected them for Yr 3, this entire cohort is now falling down in maths compared to other previous yrs.

Could it be not so much to do with class size, then but to do with the rapid turnover of staff in the last 2 yrs, the fact the school's become co-ed in the last 3 yrs and the fact that many of the new teachers are v v young and, for a few, it's their first job as a qualified teacher?

Could it, on the other hand, be the increasing reliance in the Maths lessons, certainly, on use of computer software/ games rather than old-fashioned teaching of specific strategies to tackle varying problems?

Whilst all the children are supposedly bright, there is of course quite a wide range of ability still from "born-to-be maths geniuses" to those who excel in literacy, to those with dyslexia to those with Asperger's, attentional difficulties, challenging behaviours etc etc. Different learning styles must surely mean that the teachers have to accomodate to all variations and the larger the class, the more the teaching must be adapted to individuals - but clearly can't be with 25/ 26 children and no TA.

I'm not sure what to think but a talk with the head might help in any case. Many of the children have come from much smaller pre-preps (my twins had 10 to 12 per class in theirs) and we've got used to getting to know the teachers so much better and them knowing our children v well. Now, we barely recognise the staff, in this bigger school, as there seem to be new ones each yr and the staff know the children less well too. Staff have started and left within one school year too.

If your DC aren't doing as well in maths as you think they should be then possibly there is a problem with the maths teacher's lack of experience. Or it could be that the more modern methods employed take a while longer to give results. In any case I imagine that there is very little you can do about it. One would presume that since you are 'paying' you have access to the best teachers, but I guess math teachers are thin on the ground, so maybe not.

You could just tell him that you are unhappy with the progress your DC are making in maths and ask to be kept informed of what work they are doing. I did this with my DD when she was in YR2 of prePrep and I was at how inappropriate the work she was doing was for her ability. There was little (or no) differentiation in a class of 10 and her teacher was the Head of the prePrep. I thought things would improve when she left and was replaced by a very experienced very 'old school' teacher. Sadly not.

My my son's pre-prep the class size rose in September last year from 12 to 18. This was because the pre-prep that he did attend decided not to run past pre-school, so the 6 in his class all transfered on mass to the school he is in now. The existing parents were not happy with this and they split the class in to two. Worked out better because new students also joined during the first term. He now has 12 in his class. DD who is 3 has 15, but they aren't all there full time.

20 max at ours. When one of the years had an influx of pupils they added an extra class (usually two classes in a year, that year now has three). Ds's had 13 in reception and 15 from year 1. It is non-selective and I imagine there may be a few exits to more selective schools at year 3.

Our local state schools have between 20 and 26 in a class. If we had 26 in a class at pre-prep I would expect one teacher and two TAs and would be concerned that the class size is too big.

Just read your more recent post. I would be more concerned at the high staff turnover. What is the reason for it? If the teaching staff are unhappy then the class size is an added complication but probably not the cause of falling results.

A school has to have an absolute minimum of 16 - 18 per class to ensure viability. Add on for TAs, and small options classes, and also for development.

If you want a school with bells and whistles, then you need to have 22+ in the class.

The dc's school has 20 in pre prep and 24 in prep. I am happy with this. Teaching is good, there are TA's and LSA's and excellent facilities.

"Could it be not so much to do with class size, then but to do with the rapid turnover of staff in the last 2 yrs, the fact the school's become co-ed in the last 3 yrs and the fact that many of the new teachers are v v young and, for a few, it's their first job as a qualified teacher?"

I'd say it was almost entriely due to this.

There are lots of advantages to having young teachers - they work very hard, they're still inspired to be creative and are up-to-date with all the latest methods (I'm not saying older, or more experienced teachers don't have these attributes too). Well supported NQTs can do a fantastic job. However, if your school has a lot of them the chances are they are NOT being well supported, and may be overwhelmed by the workload (especially at a private school where the pressure is especially high).

If the staff turnover is high then that suggests a bad working environment, too, and if the teachers aren't happy in their jobs then that will filter down to the kids somehow. And of course a high staff turnover is in itself a problem.

I'm not sure what can be done, though. I live in the SE and all new jobs appear to be getting filled by NQTs, whilst in Scotland (where I trained) it was near impossible for a new teacher to get a permanent job. There is a shortage in this part of England.

Lots of teachers are hesitant about moving to, or staying in, the private sector because of perceived difficulties in moving back to state education.

I would bet my bottom dollar that these are the root of the problems you're experiencing. It's definitely worth raising with the Head.