No English setting at comprehensive school

[gramercy]

Ds is in year 8 at a comprehensive school.

He is becoming increasingly down-hearted at the fact that English lessons aren't set and are pitched rather too low.

For example, I posted a while ago that when studying Gothic horror, they 'studied' Scooby Doo. This week he said he felt depressed as a whole double lesson was devoted to going over what verbs and adjectives are in the most basic way and everyone having to supply examples.

He is desperate to study something more meaty. I know people will say "Oh, if he's bright he should learn things himself" - but he is 12-year-old boy. Never in a month of Sundays is he going to get stuck into Fowler's Modern English Usage of his own volition.

Now - the question is - should I contact the Head of English? I hate putting my head above the parapet. I really don't want to be the pushy parent, but I feel the school is letting ds (and no doubt several others) down by this too inclusive policy.

Any views?

I'm an English teacher and, having been forced to teach mixed ability for years before the head finally agreed on setting, I have to say that I feel ypur pain! Yes, I think it would be worth seeing the Head of English and asking if they plan to continue mixed ability English teaching and, if so, how the school can ensure that your ds is sufficiently challenged?

There's nothing wrong with Scooby Doo though! Satire/irony are high level skills!

Thanks. {I've had to name-change; computer has had a funny turn.)

What should I say to the Head of English? Another thought: does anybody out there know what sort of thing is on the English syllabus in a grammar or private school?

Rather than just complain, I'd like to be able to offer up the knowledge that at Somewhere Grammar, for instance, in Year 8 they are doing Macbeth and Lord of the Flies, amongst other things.

I also had to teach English to a mixed ability group in a below average comprehensive.

It was bloody hellish. I was told I needed to differentiate. I had girls in the class who were sub level 3 and others who were level 7. Without pupils always working individually or in small groups it was virtually impossible to adequately stretch all of them all of the time.

I would say something. If nothing else, you'll add your voice to a possible list of others.

Just asked DS, setted private school,year seven and he says he's studying characterisation and point of view.

They have been reading different books and pieces to discuss how writers do this. First person versus third person. Deep point of view versus authorial intrusion. Unreliable narrator etc

They have also been learning how to write analytical essays...you know the stuff...intro, two points for the argument, two against, conclusion.

I have to say, that I am a big fan of rigorous setting. It helps pupils at all levels.

And I get very annoyed at many posters here on MNet who deny catagorically that state schools do not set ( presumably because their vast experience of er...one or two) I will defer them to you. And the other threads like this.

If it were me I would say something. No one is being served by what you describe. It may be that the teachers are saying the same thing and your views will be welcomed in an attempt to get the head to do something.

Sounds grim. Dd is at a state school where they do set and they seem to do quite interesting things in English in top set.

You must say something if you feel your child is not being challenged. Perhaps first of all, speak directly to the teacher in the least confrontational way you can (teachers are only human after all) but certainly go to the Head of Subject next if you don't get the response you know is right. Hopefully, this will sort out the situation for your child, but don't leave it there if it doesn't. The Head will want to know if this doesn't bring you the outcome it should. You don't want to go straight to 5th gear but you have the right to express your concerns and have something done about them.

Now the unpopular bit; we combine years of professional experience and a knowledge of the extensive research base that exists on the subject and we know that the make up of the class, i.e, whether it's mixed ability, streamed or set, is immaterial in either a student's success or enjoyment of a subject. What is central and fundamental, is the quality of the teaching. Outstanding teachers succeed however classes are organised and of course the converse is also true. So ask the cultural questions, not the organisational ones. Does this teacher have high enough expectations of your child and does she/he know how to inspire/teach to help him attain and exceed these?

Good luck!

capital talent ltd

gramercy my DC is Y8, they didn?t set in Y7 (unlike maths and science) but did do so at the start of this year. They have just finished reading ?Boy in the Striped Pyjamas? and this weekend?s homework was 600 words on how the author uses the characters? clothes to reflect their differing status. Not hugely demanding but a little more so than ?Scooby Doo? perhaps.

Also, even within the sets the DCs who are coping easily are given extension work, both in class and for homework. Oh, and this is at a fairly unremarkable secondary modern, so it can be done.

I would definitely be asking the question were I in your position.

Thanks for the comments.

I shall ask to speak to the Head of English. I know what I did in year 8 (2nd year I suppose, in old money) but I suppose that's irrelevant now. The main difference is that we had to read all of a book, and everything now seems to be "bite size".

DD is in Y8.

At the moment she is doing Animal Farm, and really getting stuck into it. She's done a 1250 word essay on Old Major's speech - and the essay was longer than the speech itself. It was full of good ideas and well-structured arguments.

So what your DS is doing does sound a bit feeble, but I do have a word of consolation for you. I did an English degree myself, so from personal experience, ALL you have to do to do well in English is to read. English isn't a subject that needs much teaching for those who have a knack for the subject

Most schools do set, the odd one trials mixed ability and usually goes back to setting.

Please write in to the headteacher and head of English, the more of you that do that the more likely they are to change.

Most set now in comps. Would agree with Quattro. All the best kids in English are the ones that read alot and have good imagination. I used to look forward to English exams because it gave me the chance to write.

However grammer needs to be taught and the schools seem to be much hotter on this than when I was at school, contrary to popular myth.

Litchick - you seem to believe strongly that few state schools set.

Every state secondary in the LEA I grew up in setted. (10 streams in our school).

Every state school in the LEA we now live sets.

All 3 state schools my dh taught in setted.

So, many of us are not stating that schools set from our observations of one or two, but many.

In our LEA the majority of primary schools stream from year 1. This is not opinion, but fact.

If they didn't set, I might head to the private sector.

Don't write straight to the headteacher/HOD - just phone the English teacher! I'm sure they'll be sorry to hear it and will work hard to make sure things change for the better.

If you don't see an improvement quite soon, THEN get in touch with the HOD.

I'm head of performing arts at a comp, but trained in English too, and currently teach one class of Yr 8 English - I only see them once a fortnight though (two week timetable), sharing them with another member of staff, who is an AST. Our Yr 8s are streamed, rather than setted rigidly - X and Y stream, with two broad bands within that. They're currently looking at Victorian crime stories (think Sherlock Holmes, along with a bit of contextual poetry) and I'm doing Melodrama with them in the lesson I see them.

I agree you should speak to the teacher rather than going straight to the HOD - the HT is the wrong person to go to - he/she will point you towards the HOD.

Hope you get it sorted. In the meantime, make sure he reads as much as possible, for enjoyment.

Thanks - perhaps I'll contact the teacher, then.

I was further dismayed when ds told me that he and another boy have permission to sit and read at the back because the teacher is going through things slowly with the rest of the class.

The thing is that ds does read - but everyone could do with being challenged and stretched and introduced to different genres.

HI

I trained as an English teacher last year and in one of my placement schools they set and in the other they taught mixed ability at KS3 with a 'progress group' for weaker students.

My daughter is now at comp where they teach mixed ability in maths and English and as a parent I really do sympathise with your worries.

What I feel is that as most schools set in English, most teachers are trained to teach in a setted environment. I was taught that in mixed ability groups you differentiate by task not outcome (a lot more work at first). This means that rather than set an extension task for the highest ability kids, you should have at least three different main tasks going on at once - like they do in primary school classrooms. This is loads of work at first but my experience was that once you got into this way of thinking, it was quite fun and made for a very dynamic learning environment. However, this is not what seems to be happening at dd's school. They're not set in maths either and dd was set 4 extension tasks in 1 lesson. Surely this suggests that the main task was hardly a task for her?

As a parent, I do worry that not setting in English might limit the range of novels you are able to teach. Top set year 9's will be ready to read Lord of the Flies while other students, less used to reading, might feel more comfortable with Holes or Stone Cold. It seems a shame for those higher level students..

I'm going to go in and ask how they differentiate and how they are ensuring that my dd is being extended in both maths and English while the needs of the level 3 kids are also being met... All children have an entitlement to learn, be they level 7 or level 3. I love the idea of mixed ability teaching, but departments do need to support new staff as they make the transition from teaching in sets to mixed ability.

Leaving clever kids to read at the back is appalling. I can completely sympathise with why this happens but as a parent you need to go in and be fairly assertive.

I emailed my dd's tutor twice in 10 days about this issue and received no reply. Eventually, in sheer frustration I sent another email (very polite) but cc'd HOD's and Head of School. I had a long reply within two hours and appointments with all relevant teachers set up within the day. Schools are busy places and sometimes you have to make yourself heard

DS is Y8 at a very academic private school. They are currently working on book reviews, which from what I can see, involves them reading whichever type of book they select from the library over a week, and having to write a review of a certain length.

It probably doesn't sound that taxing but they have to really understand the genre they are reading and how to write in a journalistic style (the type of newspaper varied every week from high-brow to sensationalist) so actually DS is really enjoying the work and is grasping how to write in certain styles.

They aren't setted but English is one of his strongest subjects so he along with a couple of others is given extension work in lessons and it all seems to run pretty smoothly.

I definitely think you should speak to the school as he will switch off if not pushed and English must be one of the easiest subjects to set extension work in?

My Dcs school teach English in mixed ability classes in KS3 and it has never been a problem. Both DD's did very well at GCSE and enjoyed English lessons. The work always seems interesting and challenging - DS(year 9) has just been doing some work on "Sociolect" and talking in different ways in different situations, the previous topic was on poetry and using music as an inspiration. DS is particularly good at English and its one of his favourite subjects so his Englsh teacher must be doing something right!

It seems that your son's school has some low expectations gramercy and I'd be quite concerned about that.

" This means that rather than set an extension task for the highest ability kids, you should have at least three different main tasks going on at once....... This is loads of work at first but my experience was that once you got into this way of thinking it was quite fun and made for a very dynamic learning environment."

I think Maria has got to the nub of the issue with mixed ability teaching. It can work well when the teacher is confident, skilled and has the conviction that it's best for children to be taught in mixed abilities.

However, I'm sure that there are many teachers who just aren't comfortable with mixed ability classes and for many reasons don't employ best practice.

This article is from the excellent 'Scenes from the Battleground' Blog (written by a teacher) and is an amusing take on the perils of mixed ability teaching.

Mixed Ability Teaching Doesn't Exist

And the Battleground's critique of setting, for balance.

The Joy of Setting

Jackstarbright, the critique on setting is quite depressing! Also two teachers, in the comments section that follows, have admitted to falsifying test results in order to shape the sets they'd prefer to teach!

In our school a teacher has admitted to me that they don't like to move too many children between sets as it's an 'administrative nightmare'.

When I was at school 50% did O'level and 50% CSE. There was an upper and lower band. When a few from the lower band were moved up to the O'level stream most just couldn't cope with the work and were moved down again. They were perfectly capable in the most part it was just too much of a jump at this stage. They had also been largely conditioned to see themselves as rather dim/none too bright which didn't help matters. CSE French had them writing about the French way of life in English drawing and colouring in pictures of carrots etc and labeling them in French. O'level French meant they needed to be able to cope with dictation and simple composition in French. Children tend to live up to our expectations or otherwise.

Seemingly static sets and children as young as 7 unconsciously labelled as 'bright' and 'not so bright' concern me.

In an ideal world, IMO each class would have around 15 pupils in it which would mean the subject matter could be more easily rolled out and pitched at an appropriate level for all students.

I've been reading recently that any arguments about setting or mixed-ability teaching are not terribly important. Apparently what matters the most in terms of raising standards is not what method of grouping that is chosen but whether the teachers who have to implement the system believe it or not.

Streaming apparently always gets the best results with teachers that believe in streaming and mixed-ability likewise. (Reid, Clunies-Ross, Goacher & Vile: Mixed Ability Teaching: Problems and Possibilities).

civil - it's not a case of what I belive, but what fellow parents tell me, and what has come up on this threadf and countless others.

These parents in rl and on MNet aren't lying. Why would they?

And anyway, how on earth is it remotely helpful to the op and other posters that your school sets?
Is she supposed to say, oh well, that's okay then?

If my year eight were studying Scooby Doo I would be having words. What a waste of a bright child's brains.

'DS(year 9) has just been doing some work on "Sociolect" and talking in different ways in different situations, the previous topic was on poetry and using music as an inspiration'

Sorry, but that doesn't sound as challenging as actually reading a text such as The Catcher in the Rye or The Curious Case, or, god forbid, Great Expectations and writing essays on, for example, use of point of view or rhetorical devices.

Don't be gulled by these pseudo-academic titles.

I studied English at Oxbridge. And I am a professional writer. I'm not a teacher but I do go into schools and run workshops.

abr1de - do you have children? Interested as to what you would encourage/tips? How do your workshops operate? They sound interesting.

I am hoping to get my children to read the children's classics by 11 and hopefully foster in them a love of literature.

In the 11 plus and similar exams children will be expected to be able to read and cope with a passage from a text like Great Expectations.

A sample question:

'I followed her at a distance, and saw her go up the staircase. She carried a bare candle in her hand, which she had probably taken from one of the sconces in her own room, and it was a most unearthly object by its light. Standing at the bottom of the staircase, I felt the mildewed air of the feast-chamber, without seeing her open the door, and I heard her walking there, and so across into her own room, and so across again into that, never ceasing the loud cry. After a time, I tried in the dark both to get out, and to go back, but I could do neither until some streaks of day strayed in and showed me where to lay my hands.'

Explain the meaning of each phrase as it is used in the extract:
a. 'a most unearthly object'
b. 'the mildewed air'
c. 'streaks of day strayed in'

What do you think a sconce is?

abr1de - what are your thoughts about these sorts of questions and depth of understanding required at this sort of level? More importantly IMO these sorts of texts and children's classics could be brought alive in class and children could appreciate them. Even younger children.