Allison Pearson in Telegraph about why grammar schools best

[PollyParanoia]

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I have to say I think this is poorly written, even without me going into my (somewhat confused) thoughts about grammar schools. Do agree with her about the hypocrisy of so many of our elite sending kids to faith schools.
And, ooo, the readers' comments are a bit scary, but then what was I expecting?

Undoubtedly Maybe because the pool of great Headteachers (and teachers) is not large enough for all the schools in the country, Riven?

It would be practically impossible for a child who had not ahs some sort of coaching, even if that just means a few practice papers at home, to pass the Kent Test - and I assume that other areas are the same.

The level of vocabulary needed for the verbal reasoning paper and the level of knowledge neded for the maths paper are very high - it's unlikely that a child from a family which was not involved/interested/educated could pass.

You cannot sew a silk purse out of a sow's ear and all that .

All developed countries (except perhaps Finland) have an issue with quality of teachers - you need to recruit very high quality raw material before imparting excellent training...

The UK is unusual among developed countries in having exceptionally low standards for the recruitment of secondary school teachers (ie recruitment pre-PGCE).

But that is the problem RIven it does seem to me that the most important part of the school is the Head and his leadership.

DCs school have been turned around from 16% to 88% 5 GCSEs in quite a short period of time. He is an amazing HM and I just hope he doesn't move in the next 5 years

I went to a Grammar in Bristol in the 80's that had the weirdest catchment area designed to take in the middle class children in a posh area and exclude those in a nearby bit which was well known for rioting.

DD announced a week ago she wants to do the 11+ in a few weeks time so I find myself getting her tutoring but don't want her to go at all. She's not hugely academic and I think if by any miracle she got in her new found confidence would be crushed and it would be a disaster. As we're out of catchment she'll have to get a higher mark and is up against the local prep school children who have been tutored up to the eyeballs for years so I don't think she stands any chance of getting in thank goodness.

"....Maybe because the pool of great Headteachers (and teachers) is not large enough for all the schools in the country,"

Sadly - I think you are spot on Bonsoir.

What I mean is that it tests an area not taught by the NC and is not something a child would be expected to know unless taught (have forgotten what this is - must look it up) Clued-up parents know this; parents who just send their child along to see how they are comparatively disadvantaged. Grammar schools increasingly see children taught intensively to the test and then once in, struggle. Data from primary shows they have SATs levels of 3/4 rather than the norm which is 5, for instance. My point is that the test has become flawed and afair there are plans to change it.

Prinnie "The article cited the German system as a good system where you have 3 tiers of school"

The German system has been much criticised within the country itself. It may not be as chaotic as the current mess in the UK, but it's just as unfair.

Reliable studies (from the OECD) have shown that if two children have the same ability, the child from an academic family is more likely to be sent to a grammar school and the child from a non-academic family will probably land up in the middle or lower school form.

Theoretically the school forms are transparent, so that there is movement between them if a child shows more promise etc. In practice there is only movement downwards, and moving a child into a lower school form is used as a punishment for persistent bad behaviour.

In most federal states in Germany, pupils only spend four years in junior schools before the selection is made. So pupils from poorer families go to school at 6, perhaps with no reading or numeracy skills, and have very little time to catch up. It's no wonder that background is a much greater factor in determining which school form a child goes to than the child's ability.

The lowest school form, the Hauptschule has been totally discredited. Traditionally the kids there would go into 'unskilled' work which needed little training, but now the kids in the middle school form (Realschule) are taking those jobs. So the kids in the Hauptschule, who are overwhelmingly migrants, end up unemployed and disaffected. The problem is so great in Berlin now that the lower two school forms have been joined together to lessen the 'stigma' of having been to a Hauptschule. Ideally all three school forms would have been merged to create comprehensive schools, but the grammar schools had too many influential parents who objected.

Selection is not the solution.

Good H/T are in short supply.

To get into our nearest v good church secondary, if you are not the 50% living in the immediate vicinity, you have to prove faith. It's not enough to attend church, as a parent you have to be actively involved in an assigned role within the church. Have asked dh, devout atheist, if he wants to be ordained

Separate church and state. Remove church from schools, it's completely ludicrous that in a country like the uk, where religion plays a part in so few lives, that the church gets to dominate education to such an extent.

When I were a yoof we all took a test at the end of primary, at our own school, and based on the results went to grammar or not. There was no teaching geared to the test.

My ds is at a grammar and was not tutored.

"Separate church and state. Remove church from schools, it's completely ludicrous that in a country like the uk, where religion plays a part in so few lives, that the church gets to dominate education to such an extent."

YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES

I agree!!!!!!

Riven; I agree - all schools should offer fantastic education, and for the most part they do. However, as with most things - money talks, and if you can buy yourself into a better catchment area you will. People with money have (usually) worked damn hard to get it, they have a good work ethic and want their children to do well. They don't want their children in schools alongside families who don't value education - and let's be honest - there are plenty of families who see schools as little more than a free baby sitting service.

MotherM - I suspect when the Germans look at our system they see that the comprehensive school system isn't any fairer to children from disadvantaged backgrounds than their selective system. Plus, they normally outrank us on OECD education tables (in maths and science - anyway).

As Bonsoir indicates, only the Finns have come close to making a truly comprehensive state education system work well, and they appear to have an excellent supply of good teachers and head teachers.

Riven, small population, greater per capita wealth, investment, less social divide.

Riven, I can't remember - have a snoop about on tinternet

"Finns have come close to making a truly comprehensive state education system work well,"

Unfortunately they turn out robots with no initiative. I worked for the largest company in Finland for 6 years, in their uk branch.
The Finns were brilliant at their jobs as long as they didn't have to go outside their narrow remit.

We live in a capitalist state Riven - we're not a communist country. Money talks and the more you have the more power you've got. The poorer people you talk about have to accept that. We couldn't afford to privately educate 4 children - we'd have loved to. So we did the next best thing - bought property in a good area. (and I'm catholic - which helps)

Damn - dp's on the thread. There goes the neighbourhood.

Where I used to live in London there were 4 better state schools north of the borough that everyone across the borough wanted to attend. Over time, the one I went to outranked the others by acquiring an excellent head and teachers so it became the one to get in to, whilst another went downhill quite rapidly, hence the scramble for places and houses.

For all schools to be excellent depends a great deal on the quality of the headteacher and the ability of the school to recruit the best teachers. We live in a one school small town and the secondary school excels at mediocrity. For dh's tough school to be excellent, there would have to be a sea-change in education, with far more vocational courses and apprenticeships properly funded and skilled from 14 - and they just aren't. Part of his frustration is for the 50%+ at his school who are railroaded through GCSE courses they are not going to pass.