French education system

[wolfbrother]

Is there someone French or living in France, or who has been educated in France, who can explain the secondary school system for me? No I am NOT considering it for DCs, nor wishing to discuss the merits, it's just that we can't get our heads around it.

French pen-friend is 16, and will be 17 in March, which in the UK would be year 12, but will be sitting the "Bac" in the summer. Then he says he is going to another establishment/college/school (probably boarding) to do more specialised education for two years (science based, but continuing English) before applying to university.

So do they do the Bac a year earlier than it would be done here (in places where you can do the Bac)? And do they have an extra year of school before university if they then do another two years? And do they therefore start uni at a much higher level than here?

It depends when in the year you're born. You can end up a year 'ahead' if you're Sept-Dec as school years run Sept-Sept but intake is Jan-Jan. You can also be put up a year quite easily which results in you ending up in terminale and taking the Bac early. Almost all state secondary students in a standard lycée will take their Bac when they reach terminale. If he's talking about just one exam this summer it might be the French component which is taken at the end of première, which would be the correct year for his age but as I said he might have jumped.

The specialised place is probably prépa - you go there to prepare the concours, competitive exams, for entry to the grandes écoles.

Depending what subject you do, which influences where you go, you end up with a diploma from the grande école (which is university level) usually equivalent to a Masters after 3 years. So you do 2 + 3 rather than the standard university 3 (licence = bachelors) + 2 (master 1 and master 2).

I teach students in the second year of their licence who have entered from a prépa and they've been exempted from the first year of Uni on the strength of their year at prépa. Whether that holds for entry into the third year I don't know but inimagine it would.

I almost get it, thank you.

He did his French bit of the Bac last summer, and I'm sure he's talking about doing the complete Bac this summer, so must have jumped a year from what you say.

They do complete the Bac. before we complete A-Levels here. My cousin was 17 this October, and she'll be finishing her Bac.(and school) this year, while I'll still have Year 13 to go. I think on the whole their system is better, although I think staying until 18 would be preferable.
Their schools seem a lot stricter and more academic than ones in the UK. =/

Dust your cousin is an October birthday so will have been ahead the whole way. She would have started maternelle at 2 instead of 3 so will finish at 17 instead of 18.

They still have the full 14 years of education but those with a Sept-Dec birthday start a year ahead of children of equivalent age in the UK.

My SIL completed maternelle in 2 years rather than 3 so was ahead from that point on - sounds like your DS's penfriend may have done much the same thing.

By French standards British children with Sept-Dec birthdays finish late, starting Uni at 19 instead if 18. It's just a different starting point.

15 years rather.

Or 12 if they skipped maternelle but very few do.

Thank you both.

Have been reading about the prepa (sorry couldn't find how to do the accent) and I'm sure this must be what he was trying to describe. My son (year 12) thinks it looks horrible!!

Some of them look incredibly tough but they get you where you want to go and those who completed them tend to talk about it positively. If you've come through the French education system then it doesn't look so bad, although the colles are something students apparently find difficult at first, which I can understand as that kind of cross-examination doesn't exist even at a typical university here. I've heard them described as tough, old-style Oxbridge tutorials.

I wish your DS's penfriend the best of luck! Which stream is he hoping to enter?

Frakk, can I hijack?

I'm rewriting course materials for the language company I work for...we do a specialised course (for which I'm course director in the summer) for Bac students....seconde, premiere, terminale...most of whom are struggling with English (although when I see their English compared to an A level French language British kid that always makes me smile, that they think they are struggling!) Also get very few who are high flyers and will go to do prepa.

Can you point me in the direction of anywhere that I can get a sort of rubric of exactly what is done in English language at any or all of those stages? Or tell me where to start googling myself?

I have old test papers, and Bonsoir kindly told me what course her dss is following, what I could do with is an actual syllabus?

I know it's different for the ones who follow the literature or science element, but generally speaking, any idea where I can start?

If I or anyone else at my university knew that we'd be over the moon! As it is they don't seem to publish syllabi.....

I will do some googling today though as it's something I need to do (and it beats marking) probably starting with the CNED as that's the official port of call for anyone who homeschools. How's your French if I do find anything?

Well, that solves a mystery, as I've been googling, and apart from the usual wiki-type general descriptions there didn't seem to be much.... My degree was in French and Spanish (many many years ago, but as I've been living in Italy for the past 16 yrs, it's no longer what I'd call active!) I can understand, just not produce any more!

Thanks in advance!
I'll also have a look at this CNED thingummy.

The syllabi, for what they are worth, are usually published in the BO. I found one by googling "BO programme scolaire anglais terminale" here, though I am sure it is out of date. You need to click on the pink link to open the annexe.

You should be able to do a keyword search within the BO to find a more recent one...I'd have a scout, but I have DS1 at home on holiday and he is demanding attention.

If you know/have access to anyone who works in an IUFM, they should be able to help provide the latest syllabus.

I've seen those before but isn't there something which tells more explicitly the grammar they should have mastered etc? All the guidance I, or anyone else can find, is wishy-washy 'the student should be able to communicate their ideas in clear and concise manner' or the cultural stuff they should be aware of. Hadn't thought of the IUFM though.

You'd have thought that for such a rigidly controlled system there would be detailed official guidance on what students were expected to know at the end, possibly even what mark corresponded to what level. It would at least stop me going 'surely you learnt that at school? no? never heard of it? are you sure?'.

I remember when we were working on our French GCSE at school there was a brief 'here is the subjunctive, you don't need to learn it now as it's on the AS syllabus but you can use it in the exam if you like' which admittedly is a horrendous approach but at least laid out what we had to know and when.

Like this except for the BAC instead of a CAP/Bacpro which is what I've been using as a guide, especially p31-36!

Wild guess: the theory is that they have covered the tenses in previous years before Terminale, as well as the basics of determination, nominal group, use of modals, etc.,etc.). So the syllabus is laid out in terms of competences to be acquired, rather than grammar points to be covered, which are supposd to be revised, reactivated and strengthened in context.

A more grammar-based approach may be used in earlier stages, but stop at the end of troisième or something.

This is clearly insane unrealistic and utopian, but the lack of any connection between theory and reality has never stopped the MEN yet.

I think part of the problem is also that they are dead keen on using the European references (A1, etc.), which are not worked out according to grammar points, but to skills, so they define their syllabus accordingly.

There is sth here and
sth re 5ème to compare with here but I can't open the pdf for some reason...

I taught Terminale during my stage twelve years ago, and can't remember any specific grammar points being on the syllabus. But it was a brief encounter and a long time ago...

Those links are really really useful, thanks so much! Have printed loads out, and will dust off my 1988 French At least they give me ideas as to what our students should be able to do.

I hate the CEF in all honesty. It's an absolute nightmare to try and adhere to, and until all the European countries are following the same language syllabus, (in their respective foreign lang teaching obviously) how on earth can it ever be valid?

Hey ho.

Just a quickie, is the Bac professionel thingy considered "better" (higher level) than bog standard Bac?

No, Bac Pro is vocational so it's therefore deemed more practical, less theoretical and hence slightly below the Bac Général as far as level goes.

Glad the links were useful, was a bit odd posting them w/o being able to see them!

Oh, right....

Is it your adobe playing up? Mine does that all the time, I can only see stuff if I right click on save-target-as and then open it.

(computer is older than a very bureaucratic education system!!)

Don't know what was wrong. Yesterday all pdf's opened as black pages. Today I can read everything perfectly.

I presume you spotted that I linked to stuff for Seconde, not Terminale. Can't remember why now, I think I couldn't find the equivalent for Terminale, but in my defence I was v distracted by DS1...

frakkinstein---engineering

Sorry wolfbrother, we stamped all over your thread!

DH's brother did prépa for engineering. He enjoyed it, but he's a confirmed maths/physics geek...and likes hard work.

No probs!