Too poor for uni so how about the OU

[Pennylessparent]

As time goes by and my DC get closer and closer to Uni age it is looking more and more unlikely we will ever find the money to fund them through it.

We are not on a particular low income but got our mortgage late in life and cannot down size or move really as we already live in a cheap area.

Its not just the uni fees but acomodation and everything else that goes with it.

I dont want my DC to start out in life with a huge debt and end up in a similar financial situation yo us - not poor but just about getting by with few treats etc.

Is it a dumb idea in these circumstances to consider the Open University?

Has anyone elses DC done this?

"Arts and Humanities can forget it, by all accounts. No more govt funding so most will close down"

At the moment, arts and humanities courses at pre-94 universities are massively over-subscribed, and often have entry requirements higher than for science and engineering courses at the same institutions. That's with the cost being about £28K (10K of fees, 18K of maintenance). The departments aren't expensive to run, and the proposed raising of the threshold of fees to £7K will easily fund the departments at their current size. That makes the total cost £39K. Why do you believe that people will willingly pay £28K for a humanities degree, to the point that the universities are massively over-subscribed and can demand (and get) AAA students, while at £39K everyone will immediately run to the hills and leave the departments to die on the arses?

Now the universities need to be careful what they wish for, because of course as the cost of degrees rises closer to full recovery, students can look more widely. So if you're going to be charged full cost by UCL, you might start to consider full cost at Heidelberg or Brown as alternatives (and the latter, at least, has financial aid for people whose parents earn less than $250K). If you want to read English, London's more expensive to live in than New England. And if the loans are on commercial terms, the government doesn't have a monopoly on provision any more. With the contact time so limited in English humanities departments, some of those East Coast Liberal Arts colleges look tempting, too.

This is going to go double for engineering and science. Imperial is suddenly going to be competing for home students with if not Yale then at least MIT and Stanford, and certainly CMU and Texas A&M. Our top medical schools will need to compete with Johns Hopkins, etc.

My elder will be applying for humanities courses, probably, in four years. I shall have her looking a bloody sight wider than the +44 country code, because the financial dis-incentives to do so (that you have to pay all the fees) will evaporate. EU universities, in particular, will be very interesting to consider.

Err because the extra 11k is a substantial difference for a number of people. And by 2014-15 there is likely to be no govt. funding for teaching Arts and Humanities, so it will go up even more. So depts will close. And how lucky you are that the world is now your edu-shopping mall, indeed.

Well university in France is free. People just need to meet the language requirements.

The Netherlands is still heavily subsidised and there are many English medium courses.

The world is indeed an edu-shopping mall and the UK would be well advised to remember that...particularly students whose parents feel that they can't afford that 'extra' £11k. That'll see you very nicely through a degree in most of Europe.

Depts won't close because there's no funding for teaching, especially not at more traditional universities. The courses and departments that will close are the ones with poor graduate employment rates.

Of course they will close if the teaching is not subsidised any longer by govt - what do you think are the discussions in my highly rated university right now?

The OU is a very solitary existance.
What type of person is your DC? It requires a lot of willpower and I find also the courses move quite slowly and I find it frustrating. Also they do not necessarily develop your thinking skills by allowing you to venture beyond the narrow set of course materials prescribed. It's very spoon fed. I suppose some people like that but I don't.
There are day schools and tutorials but tbh my only interaction with my tutor is on the written form he sends me when he grades my assignments. The tutorials and day schools are often not at a convenient time or place to make them viable for everybody and everybody doing the OU has their own life so there is no social life attached.
Skills like debating do not develop either because you never have the opportunity to be pitted against somebody else. They have online forums but it's not the same and there's never anybody around when you are.
I've been doing my first degree with them but have currently had enough and submitted a UCAS form because I'm sick and tired of having no interactive intellectual stimulation with other students or friends.

They might drastically cut the numbers of under-grad courses but I very much doubt they would close completely. There will be people who are willing to pay and other student financing options will come up.

The changes in fees over the last 5 years have been HUGE. I paid £1,100 a year I think, today's students pay 3x that and, yes, we're looking at them paying 3x more but there will be ways of financing that, probably commercial, which will enable students to pay the cost required.

I'd expect to see the quality of teaching go down though. There are already far too many classes actually taught by post-grads and the number of tutorials/seminars has reduced in favour of massive lectures. Yet people are still paying.

Then there are the international students who bring in huge fees. IIRC, although I never actually worked in the International Students Office or the any of the financial ones, they actually pay cost which is around £10k.

I hate to say it but rather than seeing the Arts/Humanities departments close I think they'll become the preserve of international students and those who can pay the £10k.

"Of course they will close if the teaching is not subsidised any longer by govt - what do you think are the discussions in my highly rated university right now?"

Whereas my highly rated university believes it will be one of several dozen remaining "full service" universities that will offer the complete spectrum. I doubt many RG universities see themselves as not being part of that. The money has to come from somewhere, either HEFCE or the students themselves, and I don't see any reason why the students will all dry up because the prices go up. There were dire prognostications when fees of any sort were introduced but takeup has continued to rise. What is magical about £7K/year that isn't magical about £3.3K/year?

"I hate to say it but rather than seeing the Arts/Humanities departments close I think they'll become the preserve of international students and those who can pay the £10k."

Well, they're hardly unknown in the US, which is funded precisely as you describe. And as I understand it, humanities have tended not to be popular with students who are worried about the debt anyway, and RG humanities departments are social extremely narrow anyway.

"I'd expect to see the quality of teaching go down though. There are already far too many classes actually taught by post-grads and the number of tutorials/seminars has reduced in favour of massive lectures. Yet people are still paying. "

Although if people are paying more, they might start to be more discerning and ask what their money is buying them.

""I'd expect to see the quality of teaching go down though. There are already far too many classes actually taught by post-grads and the number of tutorials/seminars has reduced in favour of massive lectures. Yet people are still paying. "

Although if people are paying more, they might start to be more discerning and ask what their money is buying them."

That was the argument with top-up fees though, wasn't it? And yet we still see students protesting that their contact hours aren't enough/that they're not getting access to the best people in the department because they're doing research but realistical what can they do about it? The university perspective is that they're delivering the contact hours, the student perspective is they're not getting what they're paying for. From what I've observed it's the 'traditional' universities who are most guilty of this - students vote with their feet for the name and then find out they're peers at the ex-poly down the road have smaller classes and more contact time with their professors.

It's the consumerisation of education - do universities now have an obligation to see students as customers? And is there anyone besides their Students' Union/the NUS to hold them to account?

Thank you for your replies.

I am well aware Uni is about the experience but the cost of it scares me. In an ideal world of course I would want DC to go away to Uni.

I didnt do Uni. I HAD to leave school at 16 and go to work for the money plain and simple. I am only just now returning to further education in the hope I will improve my future employment prospects to help fund my DC further education.

We have 2 DC. My eldest is a very average student but massively talented (not my words - her heads) in modern languages. She is only 13 and has an absolute passion for languages. She is pretty fluent in French, top of Spanish for her year and 2nd in her year for Greek. On all other subjects she is somewhere in the middle.

I am surprised to see that Uni is free in France - that could be a possibility.

I know Uni is still a good few years away but have just started panicking about costs as it seems everyone around us with DC younger than ours have finance plans in place and those people we know with children at Uni now - have said they intend to pay the whole whack!!!

Before reading this thread I had visions of my DD being the only one having to work to fund her Uni, but reading some of the replies on here has eased that fear a bit.

She has no idea what she wants to do yet (its early days) but she deffo wants to follow her language talents.

We are not poor, both had previous marriages so not that young when we got together. We both came into our relationship with next to nothing financially. DH was in the military back then and we lived in Army housing. Only 4 years ago when he came out did we buy our own house. We now have a 20 year mortgage ahead of us. DH earns an average salary, I was until I lost my job in March earning a pittance - as someone with no qualifications hence now being in FE myself.

We probably look OK financially on paper. DHs wages cover the essentials. When I was earning my pittance we could afford the odd treat etc but we sail close to the wind so to speak so never enough to save reguarly. Since we used all our savings for the house deposit we have little under a £1000 in savings for emergencies (boiler dying etc). Its taken us 4 years of few treats to save that back up, so there is little scope for us to set up a savings plan. I am pretty damn sure we would not be entitled to any grants or classed as low income because we are not, just maybe not where alot of people are financially at our age???

On a brighter note extended family is spread out so I suppose cheap lodgings with my relatives could be an option in either Bath, Bristol and Cardiff.

I also have another DC 2 years younger and what we do for 1 we have to be able to do for the other iykwim - assuming they both want to go uni!

I know my DC are still young but unless we win the lotto - we are never going to be that flush, although I hope I will be able to earn a more average salary in a year or two if my studies go well.

Thanks for your input.

There are interesting alternative springing up for students with good A-levels.

The major accountancy companies offer jobs for 18 year old with training. They expect As and Bs at A-level.

This is an option that would have tempted me at 18 - I was desperate to earn my living and be independent, but these options weren't around then.

In the end I had a year working and then went to Cambridge. I loved Cambridge, but think that a lot of debt could have hung over my head and spoilt my enjoyment somewhat.

As an employer myself now, I would look at A-level results first and then where the degree came from. I'm very aware that OU people often work harder than people at traditional universities (although we did work hard at Cambridge).

We-ell it's not completely free any more for most the universités, unless you apply for scholarships, but fees at the university where I work are nomial - 150 Euro a year or something - and roughly 30% of my students have grants which cover that plus grants for textbooks and living costs, a further 20% have their fees covered. It used to be free though. The grandes écoles and engineering schols are much more expensive...

That said they're going through big reforms so the cost may go up. You'd have to factor in the cost of accomodation as many students stay home with their parents rather than living in halls. It's still nowhere near as expensive as the UK.

If you're considering uni abroad you need to look at the entry requirements from about the age of 15 though, as A-levels are in no way comparable to the Bac.

I think Finland might still be completely free, likewise Sweden.

I went to university at 25. If you go when you're aged 21 or older then you are considered a mature student and your parents are not responsible for your fees, these will be paid with a loan from the Local Authority, and you will get a grant and a further (low interest, only repayable once in work) loan to go towards living costs. The living costs loan and grant worked out at about £6k a year in total. So, if your DC took a couple of years out to work and save and get some experience, then went to university, this may be the best solution all round.

Alternatively, she can go to university elsewhere in the EU. For example Sweden has some degress taught in English and Sweden does not charge for higher education.

Does your DD wabt to go to uni? If she does I should try and let her go.I know you don't want her to be in debt but for most students that is the only way to go. DD2 has a maintenance and tution loan. We pay most of her rent but she has to pay as well and also for all her bils,food and other living costs. Going ti uni has ben really good for her as it's helped her to be able to budget and sort out things for herself. It has also ben good socially. I think doing a OU cours is doable but your DD would miss out on a lot of the above stuff,
Saying that uni is not for everyone. A lot of young people stay on at college ortrain on the job.

I went to university in Sweden and even in those days had to take out a student loan to cover living expenses. Got 4 years postgraduate funding (MA+PhD), lived on half of it and used the rest to pay off my undergraduate loan. And did not marry until the cheque had gone in.

Just...worry about this later.

If she wants to go to university then the funding options are in place for her to be able to afford it. You'll just have to accept the fact that further education these days means long-term debt...unless you're wealthy.

I did an engineering degree and actually went into IT. It took 3 years before my repayments actually came to more than the interest and if I continue earning at my current wage then I won't actually pay it off before I retire. That's life though and I wouldn't have got my current job without my education.

I enjoyed university and it ended up costing around £20k. Which, if you really think about it, is pretty cheap over 3 years.

The concerning thing is that it will, as others have mentioned, cost around £40k in the near future. So for a graduate who chooses to be a teacher with a matured salary of £40k it will easily take over 25 years to repay (peaking at £190 pm). If they push the repayment salary up to £21k then it will take even longer. Now imagine what it's going to be like when the Tory's apply commercial rates of interest to the debt - higher repayments for longer periods of time.

On a final note - Labour introduced paying for university fees, now they want them taken away. The Tory's wanted them taken away, now they want to double them. The Lib Dems campaigned viciously against them and now they're in charge of the department administering them. Hmm.

Please don't think that you are unemployable with an OU degree. Research has shown that employers do value and OU degree greatly.

I know someone who did a degree with the OU and came out with a third. He got accepted onto a PGCE course at a different uni whose minimum required was a 2:2. He questioned this in the interview and was told by the uni that his third came from the OU and you actually had to work for one of those!

Meant to say, I would be torn. I did the traditional uni thing at 18, but then did a second degree with the OU (graduated in 2008). I loved the experience that the traditional uni gave me but the quality of teaching at the OU was far superior.

Yes, it can be lonely and you do need self-motivation but I wouldn't be doing what I am today if I hadn't done the OU.

Be warned though - the OU is highly addictive!

I live in French-speaking Switzerland - first degrees in the unis here typically require B2 for entry. Tuition fees are about 1200 CHFs (around £800) per annum. Of course, the day to day living here is a bit pricey, but there are still options for students to slum it a bit, eat veggie and keep the costs down.

Masters degrees are great, though - £1k or so a year, and mostly taught in English!

The OU isn't cheap. They keep putting up their prices as demand increases. And demand certainly IS increasing.

'University is only tangentially about the degree itself, and is a whole, wider experience: friendships, contacts, inspiration.'

Not if you ain't got any money it isn't! There is no experience above busking and working in McD's when you should be at lectures in order to afford your rent in a basement room with an unsafe gas-heater.

No friends, no experience, no inspiration.

I should know.

witch Loans, plus grants, plus a part-time job in a university town where students are all competing for such jobs is NOT going to fund a degree. Sorry, it just isn't.

There are set up costs too. You are expected to present your work in expensive folders. You probably need a couple of pans, an iron, quite possibly a computer. Travel too. Rarely do landlords allow term-time only accomodation and phone bills can be huge.

Please don't imply that it is affordable without immense parental support. It is NOT. I should know.

I wish the Government would remember that in the US, if families are paying out for HE, it is tax deductible!!! Sure ain't going to be like that here ...