DS, Uni applicant, ?personality? clash with teacher.

[oldmum42]

Any thoughts about this potentially thorny problem (especially from those within the Scottish system).

Don't Know how this works in England, but in Scotland, for the UCAS references from the school, each of DS current subject teachers (doing 4AH and 1H, so 5 teachers in all). write a ref about him which is given to DS Guidance teacher who writes a report based those, and her own knowledge of DS as an individual. Also a personal ref is written by the teacher of DS's choice, and submitted verbatim.

As DS is applying to Medicine, the submission deadline is next Friday 15th Oct, and the Guidance teacher told him a couple of days ago she was just finishing off his ref.

Yesterday DS was asked to stay behind after school by the head of dept in one of his subjects, who told him that his main teacher in this subject had made a complaint about DS's behaviour (the H of Dept teaches him on a Friday, the other teacher the rest of the time).
The complaint stated that DS was arrogant and disrespectful, undermining her by asking questions in class and that the teacher "couldn't deal" with him.
H of Dept told DS that he was not in trouble and that it was her opinion, in confidence, and not to be repeated to other pupils, that the teacher (newly graduated and in her first term as a teacher) simply didn't have the experience or confidence to "handle" an exceptionally bright, interested pupil, and was feeling threatened by his level of knowledge in the subject, particularly as DS is "crashing" this H subject, but is already beyond the top of the class after a few weeks. DS was advised to "back off", by not asking questions in class, and that she, the H of Dept would supply him with additional, AH level work to keep him interested, as she said the "H" work was "too easy". She repeated again that DS was doing nothing wrong and that she "had no problems at all" with DS attitude, personally or behaviour in class.

Not bragging at all here, it's just a fact, DS picks things up so fast boredom is a real problem (he reads it once and knows it), so he is usually reading way ahead or researching the topic in depth on the net in class(in all his subjects) all his other teachers are fine about this as they know he doesn't NEED to go over the same thing again and again, indeed they are full of praise at his "self directed learning" and "deep interest in learning". I am wondering if this other teacher is actually having a big personality clash with DS because she feels threatened by his intelligence?

DS pretty shocked and upset at the teachers complaint, and it's at odds with anything his other teachers say about him. We are really concerned as this teacher wrote a ucas reference only a couple of weeks ago.

Will the Guidance teacher be duty bound to include and negative statements the teacher has made in her reference or will it be an "average" of all the comments? DS gets on really well with the Guidance teacher (and has worked with her helping out at an after school club), and all his other teachers get on well with him too.

We seem to have no right/ability to actually see the reference before is submitted to UCAS, is that right?

What would you do if it was your DC? We are wavering between "nothing" and getting DS to have a quiet word with the Guidance teacher to see if he can see the reference on the grounds that he "wants to be prepared" in case anything unexpected in his reference is brought up at interview. As the reference may have been submitted already (do the school email it to UCAS or is it attached to DS's application form?), and as time (till the deadline), is very limited, its too late for him to go on any kind of charm offensive with the teacher concerned.

I've been a sixth form tutor for a few years (in England, but same system apart from tutor collates and writes final report, not guidance advisor).

I have advised students to approach a different member of staff for a better reference. HOD should be happy to do this.

They won't include any negative references, it is not in their interests to do so. They want him to get a good uni place too.

Don't worry at all, it will be fine. I wouldn't bother trying to charm the teacher, but ask the HOD for a reference instead. It might be worth having a chat to the guidance advisor so they know, when they get two references, which one to submit.

Oh, and I always show the students their references in advance of them being sent off, so if this situation arises something can be done. It is submitted via UCAS website. The head of sixth form will probably read it first, and won't submit anything poorly written or negative.

There is very little time though, tell him to make it his priority on Monday.

A teacher who can't handle pupils asking questions?

[boggle]

I mean, unless his 'questions' were actually him saying she was talking shit and asking 'questions' that basically contradicted what she was saying and he was making her look like she didn't know what she was talking about, then she's just bonkers! Teacher doesn't want the kids to ask questions about the subject she's teaching.

Thanks for that LOOPYLOOPS, that's useful info. The handful of other potential med/vet/dentistry and Oxbridge students who's applications have been already been done for the 15th Oct deadline have not been shown their refs - I don't know if this is a Scottish thing or a state school thing, but the school has had very little input with either careers advice or Ucas prep- not even reading the PS, simply handing them an A4 sheet of do's and don't's during a lunch time meeting and telling them get on with it. It's all very "hands off".
DS does know that the teacher who wrote the "personal" reference wrote a "spectacular" one (so he said, but he didn't show it to DS!). I think a chat with his Guidance teacher on Mon would be a good idea (seems to be the same role as "tutor" in your system, we don't have tutors).

HQW, sadly it would seem so, but I think it's her inexperience that's the real problem. Unfortunately though, in science subjects, uni level stuff usually DOES contradict the high school syllabus, everything is simplified. So you may have a point actually - him learning too much about the topic may be making her feel undermined? An experienced teacher would say "yes oldmum's ds, you're right, but for the purposes of this course we only need to know X, but it's great you are so interested..why don't you go and read such and such's excellent book/research paper on the subject" rather than take it as a slight on her personal ability. Which it's not. DS is totally and that this

teacher thought he was behaving in any negative way, especially as the implication was that it was being done with some malice, when he was just being his usual (perhaps overenthusiastic) self.

I'm not saying DS is in anyway perfect but malice is just not him at all.

I hope the guidance teacher has read through his personal statement? Has he submitted that to the teacher? If he hasn't, feel free to PM it to me and I'll have a look.

There is no way that a negative reference will be sent, don't worry.

They were just asked to upload it to the ucas form by a certain date (a couple of weeks ago), and told that the school could access all of the applications as they have the schools code on them (?), so don't know if she read it, but DS did hand a sheet which was a rough draft of the PS plus all his personal details and info to both his Guidance teacher and the teacher he chose to do the other part of the ref, to make things easier for them (both thought that was a good idea and a "very organised" thing for him to do.

Fortunately, though the school is very hands off, our next door neighbour has been involved in med school interviews/selection for years, and has been an invaluable source of advice, DH is a doctor and one of his colleagues has been passing on all the info and advice her DD has been getting from her private school, so the PS has had plenty of attention and we are sure it cuts muster, but thanks so much for your offer to read it - that was very kind!
We also passed on the info to the other 3 potential Med students in his school, and DS passed round the books we'd bought regarding PS, interviews and Med school entrance exams. we are well aware not everyone can afford to buy these things, and not everyone has medical connections, so in the absence of very much input from the school we thought we should do our bit.

DS has just Skyped the other would be Med student his Guidance teacher was writing a reference for, and found out he WAS shown the completed ref on Friday, so that's good. DS expects he will be shown his on Monday when he has a soc ed class with her.

"arrogant and undermining"

no worries - sounds like he could be a brillinat doctor - surgeon potential.

Reckon the universities will see straight through the pedestrian teachers and snap him up...

He should ask her directly to see it.

I'm shocked, to be honest, at the lack of support.

My school is state, and 6th form not really a priority, but UCAS trumps everything else IMO.

Nonnomum . Really, he's not like that at all - def not surgeon material (DS is far too normal to fit the stereotype), and Med schools are rightly looking for more rounded empathetic individuals, it's not just academic ability these days.

Teaching very bright kids, especially sixth form, and especially as a young teacher, is intimidating.

LOOPY, thanks, he will ask.

For state schools in this area, minimal support seems to be the norm - the private ones are very different, with support groups for PS writing, lots of feed-back and advice on all aspects of Uni application.

All the threads I've read on mn suggest the English system is much better geared towards uni application than the Scottish.

That's just the way it is.

Yes Loopy, I can see why it could be intimidating, and I think that's why the H of Dept took the time to tell DS both to lay off the questions, and that it was an inexperience issue, and that he wasn't in any trouble - I thought it was displaying trust in DS maturity to tell him all that, and trust him not to blab to the other pupils (which really could undermine the teacher).

Both DH and I have said do as the HOD said - tone down your enthusiasm and be at pains to be extra respectful in class. Let her see you are in no way "against" her.

Anyway, bed time now!

It sounds to me as thought the HoD has handled this rather well. Been honest with your son and trying to support an inexperienced teacher too. I'm sure the reference will be fine. Why don't you make an appointment to see the HoD or your son's tutor early this week for some reassurance about this.

I have written many UCAS references and always try to write a fair, balanced and positive report of the student. I can't imagine any guidance teacher writing anything negative based on what you have said. The teacher does sound inexperienced and obviously lacking in confidence if you DS's questioning is concerning her. It sounds as though you son's style of learning will stand him in good stead in the coming years at uni. Good to hear of students asking questions - I have had too many passive learners over the years! Good advice from loopy to ask guidance teacher on Monday. I am sure it will be fine.

Thanks for everyone's comments and insights - all very useful x

I always thought that UCAS references like job references should always be positive. Sometimes it is what you don't say that matters! As to being intimadating, when I first taught Alevel, I had a student who I thought was really arrogant and cosdescending. It took me almost a year to realise he thought he was being funny and I had got him wrong! I knew I was inexperienced and thought he was getting at me but it was in my head! Now if anyone did that I would ignore it or tell them to stop as it wasn't funny. I feel confident and that makes the difference.
Students asking lots of questions can be threatening. I had a student who used to ask me lots of sruff that he didn't care about but was trying to find a chink in my knowledge! It wasted a lot of classtime and I told him to stop but it was arrogant I know more than you behaviour.

Hmm, I fear you are right about Scottish state schools Oldmum. I remember very little advice and support about uni applications and subject choice when I was at one of the best state schools in the country (and it hasn't improved much according to a friend whose kids have just left). Help was rarely volunteered and kids weren't pushed much if they were slipping back.
Help with applications and encouragement to be ambitious about which uni to apply to (ie. not just the local ones) seems to be the main advantage of a private education up here (again recent experience of friends and neighbours). I never had to write a PS as it was not required for Art College when I applied but I am already feeling a bit daunted about the whole issue and DS1 is only in S1!

Good luck to your DS.

I have never heard of a school submitting a negative reference. They will write a reference that emphasises the positives, and their skills which make them suitable for the course.

There is a lot of hearsay in the OP's post, but perhaps her DS should think deeply on these messages.

WigglyB, aye, you hit the nail on the head with your post - DS's school is well within the top 50 state schools in Scotland - great Higher/Advanced Higher results, but if you ask me, it's down to the parents, not the school - highly educated/motivated parents and we try to help with each others kids as far as career advice and work placements go.

MmeBB, DS directly relating to me what the H of Dept said to him does NOT qualify as hearsay.

DS will of course be reflecting on what's happened and how he can make things easier for this teacher, but I would point out that DS was TOLD repeatedly that he was not at fault,his behaviour/learning style not a problem, but that it was due to the inexperience and lack of confidence of the teacher. If he was getting similar, negative feedback from any of his other teachers, we would be a lot more concerned (but he's well liked by the other staff).